Bastion of Glory

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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Thels » Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:37 am

While Divine Shield is up, you keep your threat, but you cannot get aggro except by fixates. Reckoning causes the target to fixate you for 3 seconds, (Threat is a value that mobs use to determine who they want to attack. Aggro is having a mob actually attack you. They're related, but not the same thing.) so you can Divine Shield-Taunt tank a boss for 3 seconds, which can be useful if the boss uses a heavy instant nuke on the tank. For general damage reduction it's not required.

Either way, except for the taunt trick, popping Divine Shield means the boss will wander over to who's next in thread, which you generally don't want. Therefor, people macro their Divine Shield, so they can quickly double tap the hotkey so it's gone instantly, and the boss stays on them. This is useful for clearing debuffs, which had several uses in ToT, but not so much in SoO, as most of the tank swap debuffs were immune to it. It does work on the stacks from Xaril and Kilruk, allowing a paladin tank to tank the first, and then later on the second too.

For retribution, you also want to dispel Divine Shield the moment you're safe, as it halves your damage output, but if there's heavy AoE going on, it might be wiser to keep it running, especially since Divine Shield prevents you from using Lay on Hands for the next minute.



The issue with raiding is that raids currently have 2 tanks, and Blizzard wants to enforce that both tanks have something to do. For a lot of fights, this results in the boss placing a stacking debuff on the tank, causing the tank to take more and more damage, so you want to have the second tank take over, so the first tank loses his debuffs. When the first tank loses his debuffs, he takes over again so that the second tank can lose his debuffs. If you do not do this, eventually the debuff causes the tank to take so much damage that he gets oneshot.

(Note that this doesn't really apply to LFR. While the stacking debuff is there, there's usually a cap, or it may hit so weak that even getting all the stacks for the entire fight is not really a problem. They don't want LFR groups to wipe just because 1 tank is not actively taunting.)

On some fights, such as Durumu and Iron Qon, it basically means that the second tank is just picking his nose and doing meager DPS to the boss, while he waits for his turn to taunt. If you can manage to reset the debuffs without swapping tanks, you only need 1 tank, and the second tank could then be replaced by a DPS (or switch to a DPS offspec), which means an overall better performance. On Durumu this has the added advantage that you don't have a nasty dot ticking away on a second tank, so it's easier on the healing as well.



At 21250 Haste rating, your base haste reaches 50%. (Note that there are buffs to attack speed and spell haste, which causes your melee attacks and spells to have more than 50% haste at this point, but since SoB goes on base haste, we really only look at that.) So getting your base haste up to 21250 rating/50% can certainly be useful. Note that Thok's Tail Tip DOES amplify base haste, so you can use that trinket to get to the 50% softcap.

Up to 50%, haste reduces your GCD and your attacks by the same amount. At 0% haste, you have a 1.5 second GCD and a 4.5 second CD on CS, so you can CS once every 3 GCDs. At 50% haste, you have a 1.0 second GCD and a 3.0 second CD on CS, so you can still CS once every 3 GCDs. Now imagine that you gain more haste to reduce the CD of CS so 2.5 seconds:

You start with CS. It's now on cooldown for 2.5 seconds.
After 1 second (your GCD), you press J. CS is now on cooldown for 1.5 second.
After 2 seconds, you have 0.5 seconds remaining on the CD for CS. If you wait for it to come off, you are basically wasting time, and pressing less buttons than with 3.0 second CS. But if you press another ability, you push CS back, so you still only cast it once every 3 seconds, making all the haste beyond 50% useless.

Ok, technically, haste beyond 50% is not useless, but it's a lot less useful up to 50%, because after 50%, it doesn't allow us to press abilities more often, due to the 1 second GCD cap.



For retribution, the same thing applies, but there's something else going on as well, that causes retridins to stop around 40% haste. The thing is, Haste, Mastery and Crit amplify one another, but don't amplify themselves.

Gaining 5% haste is the same increase in damage if you're at 0% haste or at 45% haste. It's a linear increase. So getting more haste doesn't make haste better.

However, gaining 5% mastery is a lot better at 45% haste than it is at 0% haste, because at 45% haste you attack much more often than at 0% haste, so there are much more attacks to get boosted by mastery. The same applies to crit.

Therefor, at around 40% haste, retribution paladins start switching towards mastery.



From the sounds of it, you seem to be unable to react quickly to what's going on (It doesn't matter if that's due to player skill, poor PC or poor internet). That does drastically change things. Heck, if you are very slow to react, and it's hard to follow your rotation, you likely don't even WANT haste to begin with. You're likely better off with lots of mastery, followed by dodge. Their passive benefits would help someone with major lag a lot better. Also knowing that you likely won't react in time to a damage spike would mean that it's recommended to keep EF running all the time, though if you usually cast it with only 2 BoG stacks, perhaps SS is the better option for you.

In general, stunning a mob means it won't attack you for 6 seconds, making it a MAJOR defensive CD. It also stops it from running away for 6 seconds, giving you 6 seconds time to build threat on it. Downside is that you don't get vengeance from it.

Hand of Freedom is seriously awesome, and can be used reactively. Not only does it prevent movement impairing effects to affect you for 6 seconds, it also removes all movement impairing effects already on you. Got caught in some kind of trap? Hand of Freedom and continue running.

Interrupts are very, very important during raiding. A lot of interruptible abilities will cause a player to die if not interrupted properly. (Assuming Heroic and in some cases Normal. Flex is usually outhealable, and in LFR you are likely not to notice the effects in the first place.) Of course, in such cases, people usually set up an interrupt rotation. "Johnny first, then Pete, then Mike, then Alex, then back to Johnny."



Sanctified Wrath and filling out 3 out of 4 GCDs:

Our normal rotation looks like this: CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X-repeat. We maximize CS cast, and maximize J cast after that, so 5 out of 9 casts are CS/J, leaving 4 gaps (the Xs). These gaps we fill with our other spells, starting with AS, and followed by HW, HoW, Consecration and the Level 90 talent. There's an X at least once every 3 GCDs, which are the moments where we consume our Grand Crusader buff.

Note that I didn't include SotR/EF, since they're not on the global cooldown. Therefor, Holy Avenger does not alter this rotation.

When we talent into Sanctified Wrath and press Avenging Wrath, J suddenly becomes the most important button, due to it's CD of only 2 GCDs, which changes our rotation into: J-CS-J-X-repeat. Now you only have an X every 4 GCDs, instead of being 1-3 GCDs from each other. The problem is that Grand Crusader doesn't stack. If we only have room to consume it once every 4 GCDs, there's a much bigger chance that we're wasting Grand Crusader procs, because we got 2 on top of each other, then when we can consume the buff once every 1-3 GCDs.



On protection, I DO macro HA and AW together. Since neither ability is on the GCD, I can press the button and even if only one of the abilities is available, it'll use that ability. It generally comes down to them triggering at different times (except at the start), due to their asynchronous CDs. Do note that the icon only displays one of them, so you need either an addon or a second button to display the second CD. An easy solution is to have the macro show HA (it is very rare that you want HA but not AW), and then keep a second icon for AW elsewhere on your skillbar. You don't need to hotkey this separate AW button, as it's not really needed to suddenly press AW, but not HA, but it can happen that you can use AW but want to save HA as a defensive cooldown for some burst DPS later on.

Note that for retribution, Sanctified Wrath is better than Holy Avenger. Also, if you have the Galakras trinket, AW will have a CD of less than 2 minutes, while HA remains 2 minutes, so they become asynchronous as well. Best to simply talent Sanctified Wrath. Again, I macro Avenging Wrath and GoAK together, even though it often ends up them activating separately.



Again, I haven't done the math, so I'm not too sure about HA vs SW for AoE damage, but I fail to see your points.

First off, if the boss is at 1000 health, then I literally don't care about my CDs. He's gonna die no matter which of my abilities I spawn. Overkill is not something you generally have to worry about, like, at all...

Second, SW forces you to do more single target DPS than HA:
9 GCDs of HA: HotR-J-X-HotR-X-J-HotR-X-X- 3 HotRs, 2 Judgments, and 4 Xs that can be used to consume Grand Crusader, or pop Consecration or Holy Wrath.
9 GCDs of SW: HotR-J-X-J-HotR-J-X-J-HotR- 3 HotRs, 4 Judgments, and only 2 Xs that can be used to consume Grand Crusader. Since you're tanking several mobs, getting at least one Grand Crusader proc every 4 GCDs is quite likely, meaning that you don't even get to place a Consecration...

AoE tanking leads to smoother damage intake in general. Avoidance suddenly starts to become a lot more interesting. With 50% avoidance, you still have a pretty good chance of getting hit by a boss for 6 seconds in a row. The chance of getting hit by 4-6 mobs for 6 seconds in a row is minuscule. With larger numbers, Avoidance becomes statistically reliable. Naturally, EF indeed also starts smoothing things out, but the same thing applies. If you're at 100% at the start, you can wait for your health to drop to say 50%, and then cast it to get you back to 100% and enjoy the hot from there on.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Kelerei » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:11 am

Adeya wrote:... these 3-second and 6-second durations for interrupts and immunity to stuns, etc., make them so useless in practice that I seldom bother. Hand of Freedom? Six seconds of "freedom" to do what? Rebuke? If the boss isn't immune and the game host receives my input in time to acknowledge and apply it, then the boss is casting the same spell no less than 6 seconds later anyway.


As Thels has already said in the post above me, don't discount utility spells such as Hand of Freedom.

I'll give you an example where I find it useful. In Garrosh P1, when it's my turn to take the great clump of adds, I'll tank them close to Garry for the DPS to AoE everything down as best they can, then, when the Ion Star starts rolling across the room, drag them over into the path, pop a glyphed Blinding Light to make sure they stay there long enough to be hit, then get the hell out of dodge. The problem is if the adds have decided to put Hamstring on me at that moment, so I pop Hand of Freedom on myself immediately after Blinding Light, which clears Hamstring and, together with Speed of Light, enables me to get out of there.

Adeya wrote:This discussion has reminded me of so many utterly incomprehensible contrary outcomes of various past events that I'm not even sure that I want to continue playing WoW. I cannot afford a Tier 3 connection even if the aging computer is still more than adequate to play the game (although Blizzard tells me that my computer and Internet service connection are better than anyone really needs to play WoW).

The local telco had an excellent ADSL staff, but their business practices and policies were atrocious (e.g., double-billing that they refuse to acknowledge, let alone correct) so I went to Cox Communications. I used the tracert utility to diagnose latency problems, and discovered that the Level 3 router which connected the internal Cox network to the Internet backbone was dropping packets. When I contacted Cox, they refused to talk about it, let alone acknowledge it. Cox just wants everyone to pay them $100/mo for cable TV and extra for "special" programs to boot.

It is all well and good to discuss the game as if these "external events" do not affect it. Yet, the reality is that the WoW developers design and implement the game as if it were played via a low-latency, stable synchronous network instead of the unstable, high-latency asynchronous Internet. Discussions with many players whom I've met reveal that they do not participate in either PvP or raiding primarily because commonplace "technical difficulties", about which they can do nothing, cripple their ability to play. Your experience may differ.


I'm in Cape Town; my realm is somewhere over in the EU. That's at least ~200ms of latency due to physical distance that I can't do a thing about, and I even have the advantage of being close to the undersea cable landing station (50 km north of me): packets from my raid teammates over in District 9 land either transit down here and then out, or transit to the east coast and then go up through the Red Sea undersea cable network depending on which ISP they're signed up with, which adds more latency on to their experience.

And yet, we're all find our ways and means of dealing with it. It does affect our performance: we've only just cleared normal SoO and only downed our first heroic boss (Norushen) on Tuesday evening. But it's not insurmountable.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Thels » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:22 pm

Sometimes I forget how convenient it is to have a ping of under 10ms to the game servers <3
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby theckhd » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:59 am

Thels wrote:Just because Theck throws some numbers out there, that doesn't mean that has to be the be-all, end-all way to play. Consider it a vast source of information and wisdom that'll help you, but you still need to work with it on a case by case basis.


More to the point, you have to consider where those numbers come from. I've used several different models (action priority lists) for refreshing EF, some more effective than others. I tried to write one that used EF reactively, but never hit upon one that was an increase in TMI. That may just have been a limitation of my conditionals, though, or maybe an under/over-estimate of the health threshold I was using.

If you want to play with it, a line like /eternal_flame,if=incoming_damage_X>Y&holy_power>3 would try to fire off a 3+ HP EF whenever you took more than Y damage in X time. The incoming_damage_X conditional is documented here. I tended to use something like "5s" for X and "health.max*0.3" for Y, but it may be that I needed to be looking at shorter time windows or larger/smaller spike thresholds.

In any event, the trade-off you're making by sitting on EF is (potentially) being able to mitigate spikes better by reactively healing a sudden large spike rather than relying on the HoT to do it for you. This depends a lot on exactly how good your reactions are and how well you're predicting your own damage intake. On paper, it makes a lot of sense. I've certainly done it myself to handle predictable spikes. For example, choosing to delay re-applying EF until immediately after Deadly_Boss_Ability rather than doing so immediately before the ability (if I'm already near full health during the cast).

In practice, I think it's hard to use effectively just due to the ridiculous size of the HoT at high Vengeance levels. If your spike is of the trickle-down variety, and you assume that you let the HoT lapse in anticipation of using it reactively, you're comparing 2-3 HoT ticks to the base heal. You really only "win" if those 2-3 HoT ticks would have been overheal.

Note that all of that only really applies to cases where you're letting the old HoT expire. It's perfectly reasonable to delay EF when your previous EF HoT is still ticking, because there's little opportunity cost there. Given how quickly we re-build 5 stacks of BoG, this is the scenario I usually find myself in.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby theckhd » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:05 am

Worldie wrote:
Thels wrote:I'm not sure where you got the idea from that EF initial's heal is less than WoG. To my knowledge, it's not. According to Wowhead, it's even slightly larger...

If I remember correctly, there's been a bug for quite some time where the EF tooltip was indicating a smaller heal than WoG


The tooltips were incorrect for a large part of MoP. But I think they were fixed in 5.3 or 5.4 - they should be identical now. The spell data very clearly shows that they're identical:

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Both have a base of 5239.27-5837.41, both have an SP coefficient of 0.490. Both tooltips reference the values in effect #1 (the WoG tooltip is actually in a different spell because of ~reasons~ which aren't that important to this discussion).
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Thels » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:45 pm

theckhd wrote:Note that all of that only really applies to cases where you're letting the old HoT expire. It's perfectly reasonable to delay EF when your previous EF HoT is still ticking, because there's little opportunity cost there. Given how quickly we re-build 5 stacks of BoG, this is the scenario I usually find myself in.


I more often than not end up refreshing EF before it runs out, but nonetheless, there are also situations where it's different. For example, if the other tank is currently tanking, and will be tanking for, say, another 15 seconds or so, pressing EF feels like a complete waste.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Adeya » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:55 am

theckhd wrote:
Adeya wrote:Please note that I am using the "standalone" CLCProt which was a module of clcInfo, AKA the "FCFS Rotation Helper".

I actually use the Ret version as well, though I don't use it for prot. I assume it should be fairly good for prot as well.


The previous CLCProt versions that I used in tanking worked very well. Quark365 offers a summary of the deficiencies of the currently-available "FCFS Rotation Helper" in a message posted to the page on Curse where CLCProt is listed: http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/protection-rotation-helper-clcpr Basically, even "works with 5.0.4" is misleading; it hasn't been updated since Cataclysm.

I've been hacking at it for quite a while, and the update has drifted into an upgrade. Since I have never seriously modified a WoW addon before, I've had a lot to learn, and I've never written much Lua source although I used to write programs in K&R C before the advent of OOP. The biggest obstacle is that the extant Lua debuggers cannot handle WoW API calls; they just freeze when they encounter one. A "WoW Lua" debugger available has not been updated since WotLK, or maybe Cataclysm, and it doesn't work.

Dunno whether CLCProt for MoP 5.4 will work as well as I would like, whether anyone else will be satisfied. Right now it's working well. I've made some changes since I started posting and reading here. Don't you know, though, that as soon as I think it is "finished", I think of something else that I can do to "improve" it. So maybe the latest brainstorm will be in a future version. What I need to finish are the instructions for using it.

Sanctity of Battle compresses the whole rotation, because it reduces the GCD and cooldowns of all of our rotational spells. It does that based on melee haste, though. Seal of Insight gives 10% spell haste, so it doesn't reduce cooldowns.


Ah, so that is what Seal of Insight does, then. Thanks!

theckhd wrote:
Adeya wrote:(1) Is there a Haste "cap" for Protection spec paladins? What I would really like is a formula to convert the numeric total of Haste to the percentage shown on the paper doll, and vice-versa. :-)

(2) Do you know of a formulary relationship between melee haste and spell haste? For example, my paladin's current melee haste is +23.16% and spell haste is +35.47%. The WoW API has a function to get the paladin's current spell haste, but there isn't one for obtaining the paladin's current melee haste.


(1) There's no specific cap - you can keep stacking haste as much as you want. It stops being very effective after 50% though, because the GCD has a 1.00-second minimum, and most of the benefit of haste comes from compressing the rotation.

(2) Melee haste is just your haste rating divided by 425. Spell haste should be a little higher because of the 10% bonus from Seal of Insight and/or the 5% bonus from the raid buff. Note that these are multiplicative, so if you have 23.16% melee haste and Seal of Insight active, you'll have 1.2316*1.1=1.3548, or 35.48% spell haste (again, 35.47% on char sheet because they floor() instead of round()). With the raid buff you'd have 1.2316*1.1*1.05=1.4225, or 42.25% spell haste.


Okay, I think that I can derive the formula to convert Spell Haste to Melee Haste from that. I need the Melee Haste to implement the effects of the Sanctity of Battle in some timing of the abilities that it affects. In the prior source code, they used Spell Haste (also in the Retribution counterpart even now).

theckhd wrote:
Adeya wrote:Lucky you! In my experience with WoW, all pseudorandom number generator outcomes for everything are always in "streaks", and they pass through "normal" only briefly on the way from one extreme to another. .... Indeed, often I wonder whether the WoW developers do implement and use an actual pseudorandom number generator in the game software. If they do, then it does not seem to me to be a very good one. Or maybe it has a bug(s).


They use a standard uniformly-distributed (pseudo)-random number generator. You probably remember the streaky times more than the more uniform times, but they both exist. I get streaks of procs or lack of procs too, that's just how random numbers work.


Well, I was thinking today about how we used 4-sided, 5-sided, 6-sided, 8-sided, 10-sided and 20-sided dice while playing Dungeons and Dragons (in the late 1970's - mid 1980's). I still have several. If Blizzard "rolled" Divine Purpose with a 4-sided die, then it probably would proc very closely to 25% of the time over a small number of rolls. An algorithm that produces 2,500 "hits" out of 10,000 "rolls" will never do that.

It would be more interesting if they set up an array of 100 cells and randomly-selected one cell in each sequential set of four to be a "hit". Then they could begin parsing the array with any cell and continue with the first cell after they reach the last one. You'd never have more than two hits in succession but also never more than six "rolls" without a hit. You'd never be able to predict whether the next cell contains a hit, although you might be able to determine the probability that it does from the outcome of enough preceding rolls.

There seem to be plenty of "pseudorandom number generators" available, mostly formulas, some very simple, others more complex. My favorite is the one used with the Hewlett Packard 34C programmable calculator.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby theckhd » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:28 pm

Adeya wrote:Okay, I think that I can derive the formula to convert Spell Haste to Melee Haste from that. I need the Melee Haste to implement the effects of the Sanctity of Battle in some timing of the abilities that it affects. In the prior source code, they used Spell Haste (also in the Retribution counterpart even now).


Sanctity of Battle did use spell haste in an early iteration during beta. So the author may have coded it that way at the time. It was changed to melee haste during beta however due to PvP issues (cast speed debuffs would actually increase your spell cooldowns as a result of SoB when it used spell haste).

Also note that the character sheet is displaying your "attack speed," but calling it "melee haste." As a result, if you're in a raid group with a player that provides the "10% attack speed" buff, it will (misleadingly) show up on your character sheet as melee haste. The effect is multiplicative, like Seal of Insight is for spell haste, but it only affects your melee swing speed.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Adeya » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:25 pm

LONG!!!

@Thels: Your remarks are interesting, particularly the analysis you offer and the frame of reference that you use in doing so. Namely, the "global cooldown" (GCD) with which we are all quite familiar, no doubt. Since all of the abilities that you use in the rotation trigger a GCD, clearly that becomes the unit of measurement, so to speak, and its duration determines how often you can use each ability in the rotation. Although, one must still consider the underlying spell cooldowns of the abilities, too.

Something that I would like to point out is that I have not been using the "rotation" that Theck, you, and others describe. Frankly, the fly-in-the-ointment is the "filler" signified by the "X" in CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X (repeat). The letter is appropriate since it is customarily used in mathematics to signify the "unknown". In practice, we don't know which such ability follows any CS or J because we don't know which will be off cooldown in the context of any particular implementation of the rotation pattern.

Further, Wrathblood specifies a priority order for them in his OP on the Elitist Jerks Paladin forum, Protection thread (http://forums.elitistjerks.com/page/articles.html/_/world-of-warcraft/prot-54-ef-you-r84 : Avenger Shield > Your level 90 talent > Holy Wrath > Consecration (reverse the order of HW and Cons for multi-target fights).

Hammer of Wrath is omitted, although apparently it triggers a GCD: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=24275 Granted, it is only usable when the target's health drops to 20% or less, but it is often a valuable tool to apply. Also, please note that an AS GC proc is not included with the CS and J HP producers, although it grants 1 HP (3 HP during HA). Like the HoW, you never know when one will happen, but it seems to throw a Monce ("monkey") wrench into the rotation when it does.

To me, at least, in this rotation scheme "X" means "except". Incorporating the exceptions into the pattern takes a lot of time -- scanning buttons to see which are off cooldown, then identifying the one that has priority. In application, I have found that consistently following the "rotation" is next to impossible. This is not only because of the exceptions, but because the most powerful and critical abilities are not included -- Shield of the Righteous, Eternal Flame and/or Word of Glory are just a start in the current expansion, for we also have situational "raid cooldowns" -- Divine Protection, Divine Shield, GoAK, and Ardent Defender, in particular.

Yes, SotR and EF/WoG don't trigger a GCD, but tracking which is off cooldown, whether enough HP is available, deciding when and whether to use it, and using the keypress or mouse-button to execute it does take time to do. While one is doing that, continuing the "rotation" is in abeyance. It tends to lead too often to the question, "Okay, now, where was I?"

So I suppose that it works for you. Yep, my mind is not a multi-core CPU, it runs only one process at any given time, and my power of concentration isn't what it was 40 years ago, but I still think ahead 7 - 10 moves while playing chess or Free Cell Pro. It just takes a bit longer. But perhaps I digress.

Then again, perhaps whether one can effectively adopt the "rotation" is largely a matter of having a better UI with appropriately useful addons. Although I have not examined it in detail, apparently the Weak Auras UI is such a construct.

Since this "rotation" model seldom worked for me in the past, when I began WotLK I investigated a friend's suggestion and began using the clcInfo, Paladin Protection and Retribution modules, AKA "FCFS Rotation Helper". The former modules now run "standalone". There is a CLCRet version for Retribution which has been maintained for MoP 5.4, and one for Protection, CLCProt, which I have been updating and upgrading to be suitable for MoP 5.4. Perhaps you are familiar with it?

Its "rotation" consists of a sequence of "actions" that the paladin chooses to include from among those implemented, such as AS, CS, J, EF, HoW, etc. The actions are in order of priority, from left to right in the command string. The core FCFS algorithm executes at a configurable rate of 10 times per second. It parses the sequence to find the action that has the highest priority that is off cooldown and meets any conditions for its use, such as available HP. The addon also has a feature that enables the player to create "aura buttons" with which to track buffs, debuffs, abilities and item usage, etc.

To conclude: in my experience, the action priority sequences that I have used respectively for Retribution spec and for Protection spec result in output that generally approximates the current recommended "rotation" as the current "primary" and "secondary" skills, respectively, are displayed to inform the player as to the best one(s) to use. Unfortunately, I have never used any particular tool in an attempt to compare the output of the FCFS Rotation Helper to an automated implementation of the "rotation" as it has been presented, in its particulars, here. So I don't know how they compare in any other way.

That said, using CLCRet and Recount, my paladin usually ranks #4 - #8 in Total Damage, and similar other stats, among 17 PCs performing the DPS role in the raids in which I've played.


Thels wrote:While Divine Shield is up, you keep your threat, but you cannot get aggro except by fixates. Reckoning causes the target to fixate you for 3 seconds, (Threat is a value that mobs use to determine who they want to attack. Aggro is having a mob actually attack you. They're related, but not the same thing.) ....


Yes, I've been aware of the distinction between them, but I don't recall reading that Divine Shield prevents a paladin from getting, or keeping, aggro. Whether the PC "has aggro" from a hostile NPC determines whether the PC enters and/or remains in combat. My paladin remains "in combat" while using Divine Shield even if not actually engaged with an opponent, so I suppose that he "has aggro" from some hostile NPC in that context even if it is not the Boss.

Thels wrote: .... For retribution, you also want to dispel Divine Shield the moment you're safe, as it halves your damage output, but if there's heavy AoE going on, it might be wiser to keep it running, especially since Divine Shield prevents you from using Lay on Hands for the next minute.


Right. Ordinarily, though, when I do use Divine Shield the situation is dire enough that I use the entire duration to recuperate and don't do any DPS at all. Although, there are some fights (e.g., with the Celestials), where I have used Divine Shield proactively, and accept the 50% reduction in DPS in order to be immune from damage that would otherwise kill my paladin, when the alternative would be moving out of melee range to avoid it, thus not doing any DPS at all. I'll have to look into whether it is appropriate to cancel it when I have used it in one of those specific situations.

Thels wrote: The issue with raiding is that raids currently have 2 tanks, and Blizzard wants to enforce that both tanks have something to do. For a lot of fights, this results in the boss placing a stacking debuff on the tank, causing the tank to take more and more damage, so you want to have the second tank take over, so the first tank loses his debuffs. ....


That's interesting. I would expect the debuffs on either tank to continue until they expire, if they ever do expire, regardless of whether they are engaged directly with the Boss.

Thels wrote: On some fights, such as Durumu and Iron Qon, it basically means that the second tank is just picking his nose and doing meager DPS to the boss, while he waits for his turn to taunt. ...


My paladin sometimes swaps his one-handed weapon and shield for a two-handed sword, mace or polearm to use in such circumstances. :-)

Thels wrote: If you can manage to reset the debuffs without swapping tanks, you only need 1 tank, and the second tank could then be replaced by a DPS (or switch to a DPS offspec), which means an overall better performance. On Durumu this has the added advantage that you don't have a nasty dot ticking away on a second tank, so it's easier on the healing as well.


Speaking of DoTs, what happens when the Eternal Flame HoT is in progress?

Thels wrote: At 21250 Haste rating, your base haste reaches 50%. (Note that there are buffs to attack speed and spell haste, which causes your melee attacks and spells to have more than 50% haste at this point, but since SoB goes on base haste, we really only look at that.) ....


Eh, asking out of curiousity: which buff(s) to Spell Haste causes "melee attacks and spells" to have more than 50% Haste? I know that an ability such as CS, J or AS is an "Instant cast" spell, but does Spell Haste affect their cooldown? SoB, per se, reduces the GCD and the specified "Instant cast" spell cooldowns according to Melee Haste.

Thels wrote: For retribution, the same thing applies, but there's something else going on as well, that causes retridins to stop around 40% haste. The thing is, Haste, Mastery and Crit amplify one another, but don't amplify themselves. ....


Right.

Thels wrote: From the sounds of it, you seem to be unable to react quickly to what's going on (It doesn't matter if that's due to player skill, poor PC or poor internet). That does drastically change things. Heck, if you are very slow to react, and it's hard to follow your rotation, you likely don't even WANT haste to begin with. You're likely better off with lots of mastery, followed by dodge. Their passive benefits would help someone with major lag a lot better. Also knowing that you likely won't react in time to a damage spike would mean that it's recommended to keep EF running all the time, though if you usually cast it with only 2 BoG stacks, perhaps SS is the better option for you.


First, why my ability to react to events is constrained does matter, insofar as some things I might be able to change and some things I cannot. I cannot do much about network latency issues, and nothing as to any specific feature of the game software. If by design the time that the player will have available to react to an event is 5 seconds or less, there is nothing that we can do to change it. The choice is either to play WoW or play another game instead.

That said, whether I can react effectively to any "short response time" event depends first and foremost upon whether I anticipate it. If I "see it coming" then I can assess the situation and be prepared to respond. Anticipation depends upon how well I know the fight. Learning the fight depends primarily upon how many times that I have participated, i.e., experience, especially in particular, but also in general. The more often the better, insofar as each experience reinforces the prior one(s) the most if a relatively short time has passed since I participated most recently. Resuming a raid a week after a wipe generally is not conducive to learning.

When I cannot respond effectively to such an event despite all of my experience, then that is most often and most likely because of network latency. However, sometimes there seems to be a bug in the software. The bug could be in the game host, or in the game client, or maybe the network that connects them. It may be an intermittent flaw that is only revealed under certain circumstances that are unlikely to occur often. FWIW, it seems that I am the world's foremost expert at finding bugs in software that no one else would ever find, or, if they did, would recognize as a bug. But I don't care to discuss that.

Other than that, the "short reaction time" events that kill my paladin usually are ones that are not part of the "script", i.e., as described in the Dungeon Journal or other sources, for example, when the tank loses aggro and the boss turns around and oneshots the paladin pounding away with HA and AW behind him. When those happen, whether I can react fast enough depends mostly upon how well-rested I am from the previous night's sleep. But it is really frustrating when I am in top form and there's nothing that I can do about it.

Thels wrote: In general, stunning a mob means it won't attack you for 6 seconds, making it a MAJOR defensive CD. It also stops it from running away for 6 seconds, giving you 6 seconds time to build threat on it. .... Hand of Freedom is seriously awesome, and can be used reactively. Not only does it prevent movement impairing effects to affect you for 6 seconds, it also removes all movement impairing effects already on you. Got caught in some kind of trap? Hand of Freedom and continue running.


Yes, I know about those. I use the Fist of Justice often, but it usually has no effect upon a raid Boss, and no effect upon most mini-bosses. Oddly, using it sometimes interupts spell-casting or a broadscale attack, but does not appear to effect a "stun" on such a target. It never stops them from resuming a few seconds later.

Regardless, my paladin is not subjected to "movement impairing effects" very often, except those against which Hand of Freedom and Emancipate are ineffective.

By far the most common "impairment" that my paladin suffers, especially as a tank, is a "stun" or one of its relatives, e.g, "silenced", "charmed", "disoriented" or "sleep". The only remedy that I've ever found is Every Man For Himself, which has a CD of 2 minutes. It also helps if you have at least one priest in Discipline spec in the raid. They don't do huge DPS but they have great buffs, interrupts, and abilities to remove debuffs.

I don't know that I've ever seen an "interrupt rotation" but I have certainly experienced "chain stuns" in PvP, especially.

Thels wrote: Sanctified Wrath and filling out 3 out of 4 GCDs:

Our normal rotation looks like this: CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X-repeat. We maximize CS cast, and maximize J cast after that, so 5 out of 9 casts are CS/J, leaving 4 gaps (the Xs). These gaps we fill with our other spells, starting with AS, and followed by HW, HoW, Consecration and the Level 90 talent. There's an X at least once every 3 GCDs, which are the moments where we consume our Grand Crusader buff. ....

When we talent into Sanctified Wrath and press Avenging Wrath, J suddenly becomes the most important button, due to it's CD of only 2 GCDs, which changes our rotation into: J-CS-J-X-repeat. Now you only have an X every 4 GCDs, instead of being 1-3 GCDs from each other. The problem is that Grand Crusader doesn't stack. If we only have room to consume it once every 4 GCDs, there's a much bigger chance that we're wasting Grand Crusader procs, because we got 2 on top of each other, then when we can consume the buff once every 1-3 GCDs.


Hmmm.... I suppose that you're right to assert that using AW with SW changes the rotation to J-CS-J-X (repeat). The problem, however, is not that Grand Crusader "doesn't stack". The problem is that the "rotation" scheme does not incorporate Grand Crusader procs effectively and the problem seems to be inherent. In other words, it is not designed for responding to random events, such as Hammer of Wrath or an AS GC proc, and I wonder how you change the rotation when Divine Purpose issues a proc. How many rotation schemes must the erstwhile paladin player memorize and learn to implement?

This problem does not exist with CLCProt action priority sequences. Actions include "ef, sor, ss, horwb, asgc, how, howaw," etc., that the traditional "rotation" does not incorporate. This doesn't change the effects that random events have upon the course of play, but it makes them more manageable.

Thels wrote: On protection, I DO macro HA and AW together. Since neither ability is on the GCD, I can press the button and even if only one of the abilities is available, it'll use that ability. .... An easy solution is to have the macro show HA (it is very rare that you want HA but not AW), and then keep a second icon for AW elsewhere on your skillbar. ...."


That sounds like a good idea.

Thels wrote: Note that for retribution, Sanctified Wrath is better than Holy Avenger. ..."


Is it? Maybe I should stop writing posts on Maintankadin long enough to review the EJ Paladin Retribution thread, but, if memory serves, the OP doesn't express a preference for one or the other. I have used SW occasionally for Retribution, but, if memory serves, Recount did not report any significant difference in any of the "stats" or for any particular fight to distinguish it. Since ret now has Hammer of the Righteous, SW might be preferable for multi-target fights.

With regard to whether SW is more effective than HA for Protection spec in multi-target situations, I think that we are talking past one another.

Thels wrote: Second, SW forces you to do more single target DPS than HA:

9 GCDs of HA: HotR-J-X-HotR-X-J-HotR-X-X- 3 HotRs, 2 Judgments, and 4 Xs that can be used to consume Grand Crusader, or pop Consecration or Holy Wrath.

9 GCDs of SW: HotR-J-X-J-HotR-J-X-J-HotR- 3 HotRs, 4 Judgments, and only 2 Xs that can be used to consume Grand Crusader. Since you're tanking several mobs, getting at least one Grand Crusader proc every 4 GCDs is quite likely, meaning that you don't even get to place a Consecration...


You overlook that AW with SW lasts 30 seconds, so you have more than just "9 GCDs of SW". With zero Haste, the paladin gets 12 GCDs during the 18 seconds of HA compared to 20 for AW with SW. The fact that GC is likely to proc numerous times during the course of either HA or AW with SW simply reveals the inherent problem of the customary "rotation".

When I first began updating CLCRet, I took my paladin to the Dread Wastes and farmed many groups of Mantids. The Recount stats for using AW with SW in the context of so many multi-target fights were much better than using HA. Again, though, that could well be so because of my own prediliction for using HA only when there is a strong opponent. It just doesn't seem necessary to use HA against a mob of relatively weak opponents when using AW alone buffs damage enough to eliminate them.

From the perspective of survivability for Protection, though, HA could indeed be appropriate for multi-target fights, if only because the 3 HP per producer makes acquiring and maintaining a strong EF with 5 BoG ever so much likely, regardless of the target(s).

It's been real ... TTYL.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Adeya » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:23 am

theckhd wrote:
Adeya wrote:Okay, I think that I can derive the formula to convert Spell Haste to Melee Haste from that. I need the Melee Haste to implement the effects of the Sanctity of Battle in some timing of the abilities that it affects. In the prior source code, they used Spell Haste (also in the Retribution counterpart even now).


Sanctity of Battle did use spell haste in an early iteration during beta. So the author may have coded it that way at the time. It was changed to melee haste during beta however due to PvP issues (cast speed debuffs would actually increase your spell cooldowns as a result of SoB when it used spell haste).


I suppose that I could look through my archived clcInfo or the early standalone CLCProt and CLCRet addons, which might reveal when the WoW API call was introduced to obtain the Spell Haste, but that doesn't matter now. The paladin's current Spell Haste is returned by (see also http://wowpedia.org/API_UnitSpellHaste ):

c_haste = 1 + UnitSpellHaste("player") / 100

UnitSpellHaste() returns a floating-point number, to quote Wowpedia "(e.g. 37.650131225586)".

There is no UnitMeleeHaste() function in the current WoW API or any other comparable function that I've been able to find.

____________________________________________

Lines 4 & 5 of the Melee section of the Character Panel for my paladin in Protection spec report:

Speed: ..... 2.10 ... Tooltip: "Attack Speed 2.10" ... BTW, the Speed of his 1H mace is 2.60.
Haste: .. +23.39 ... Tooltip: "Haste +23.39 / Increases Attack Speed / Haste 9,940 (+23.39)"

Line 2 of the Spell section of the Character Panel for my paladin in Protection spec reports:

Haste: .. +35.73 ... Tooltip: "Haste +35.73 / Increases spell casting speed / Haste 9,940 (+23.39)"
____________________________________________

What I know about Haste:

(1) The number currently "9,940" increases or decreases according to the grand total of Haste as a secondary attribute on the paladin's gear, whether it is a given attribute or gained by reforging, by gemming, and/or by enchanting the gear.

(2) With zero Haste, the value of the Speed attribute on his main-hand weapon is reported as the "Speed" in the Melee section of the Character Panel. Increasing Haste reduces the "Speed" reported in the Melee section. That "speed" determines how often he uses his weapon during the course of a fight -- the lower it is, the more often he uses it.

(3) The spellbook tooltip for Sanctity of Battle states "Melee Haste effects lower the cooldowns and global cooldown of your ... " followed by a list of the spells. However, I have not been able to find any information as to how any such reductions are calculated and/or which data that is used to do so.

To quote the post in which you discussed the calculation Spell Haste from Melee Haste:

theckhd wrote:Melee haste is just your haste rating divided by 425. Spell haste should be a little higher because of the 10% bonus from Seal of Insight and/or the 5% bonus from the raid buff. Note that these are multiplicative, so if you have 23.16% melee haste and Seal of Insight active, you'll have 1.2316*1.1=1.3548, or 35.48% spell haste (again, 35.47% on char sheet because they floor() instead of round()). With the raid buff you'd have 1.2316*1.1*1.05=1.4225, or 42.25% spell haste.


As far as I can determine, where M is the Melee Haste (1 + Melee % / 100), I is the Seal of Insight buff (1.10), R is the raid buff (1.05), and S is the Spell Haste (percentage -?-), I should be able to derive :

M x I x R = S
M x R x I = S
M x R = S / I
M = ( S / I ) / R

So with Spell Haste of 35.73% M = (1.3573 / 1.10) / 1.05
M = 1.2339 / 1.05
M = 1.1752
or 17.52%

The +23.39% "Haste:" reported in the Melee section is its value before the Raid buff is applied. If I looked at it during a raid, I suppose that it would show the actual Melee Haste value of 17.52%.

theckhd wrote: Also note that the character sheet is displaying your "attack speed," but calling it "melee haste." As a result, if you're in a raid group with a player that provides the "10% attack speed" buff, it will (misleadingly) show up on your character sheet as melee haste. The effect is multiplicative, like Seal of Insight is for spell haste, but it only affects your melee swing speed.


Now you've thrown a curve ball. :-) It seems to me that you are saying that the "Haste:" percentage shown on line 5 of the Melee section of the Character Panel is not the actual value of the paladin's Melee Haste. But this apparently contradicts your previous assertion that the Melee Haste is the grand total of the Haste attributes on his gear divided by 425, which matches the amount shown as "Haste:" on the paper doll.

That said, I must admit that without knowing exactly how Sanctity of Battle lowers the spell cooldowns and the global cooldown, there is no apparent purpose served by deriving the paladin's Melee Haste from the Spell Haste reported by the game host via the API function call. However, ignoring the SoB, by all report I can calculate the reduction in the unmodified global cooldown of 1.5 seconds that is attributable to using the paladin's Melee Haste.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:00 am

AS+GC and HoW definitely are part of your rotation. Wrathblood doesn't include HoW because it's only occasionally available, but the priority list should generally be as follows: CS>J>AS>HW>ES/LH>HoW>Cons>HPr. CS and J are already specified, so we fill up the blanks with HW, then ES or LH, then HoW if available, then Consecration, then Holy Prism.

Note that with certain talent and glyph combinations, you could squeeze out just a little more DPS, for example: CS>J>AS+GC>HW+FW>AS>HW>ES/LH>HoW>Cons>HPr. If you glyph Final Wrath, then during execute phase, Holy Wrath is prioritized over Avenger's Shield, except when you have a Grand Crusader proc.

For multiple targets, bump up Consecration. For a lot of targets, you can also bump Avenger's Shield to the top of the list whenever you have a Grand Crusader proc.



I know of CLCProt and CLCRet, but I personally use an addon called Ovale, which is similar (but for all classes/specs), and severely tweaked the scripts behind it to fit my needs exactly. Still, don't stare yourself blindly on those addons. When shit hits the fan, just be sure you keep CS and J on cooldown, and press whatever else is available, or maybe nothing at all. Placing bosses in the right spot, interrupting when it's your time to interrupt, running out of shit, taunting at the right time, tossing a hand that saves someone's life and other things are much more important than getting that one Holy Wrath or Consecration out there. Basically, when things calm down, you want to be able to look back at the icon to remember "Where was I?" and then move on without help of the icon again.



[quote="Adeya]Yes, I've been aware of the distinction between them, but I don't recall reading that Divine Shield prevents a paladin from getting, or keeping, aggro. Whether the PC "has aggro" from a hostile NPC determines whether the PC enters and/or remains in combat. My paladin remains "in combat" while using Divine Shield even if not actually engaged with an opponent, so I suppose that he "has aggro" from some hostile NPC in that context even if it is not the Boss.[/quote]

"Aggro" describes the boss actually bashing down on you, not just being in combat. While being in combat is obviously related to threat and aggro, there's no need to go into detail about it.

Threat = A score that indicates how likely a certain mob wants to attack you. Addons like Skada and Omen can show you how much threat everyone has from each individual mob.

Aggro = A certain mob is attacking you. The character highest on a mob's threat table usually has aggro, but there are exceptions:

First, if you're immune (Divine Shield), the mob ignores you and goes for the second highest on the threat table. If everyone on the threat table is immune, it returns to the top of the threat table.

Second, if someone else is at the top of the threat table, but you overtake him, the mob doesn't immediately switch. You need to be 10% higher on the threat table than the character that currently has aggro, for the mob to switch aggro to you. (30% higher if you're not standing in melee of the mob.)

Third, there are situations where mobs ignore their threat table entirely. Taunts from player characters cause mobs to fixate on them, and a lot of boss encounters have situations where mobs attack certain characters regardless of threat.



[quote=Adeya]That's interesting. I would expect the debuffs on either tank to continue until they expire, if they ever do expire, regardless of whether they are engaged directly with the Boss.[/quote]

If that was the case, there would be no need for tank swaps, would there? The thing about debuffs expiring is that if you receive a second application, it refreshes the duration of the entire stack, not just the newest application.

Say a boss has a debuff called Pain that lasts for 25 seconds. He casts the debuff every 10 seconds:
- 10 seconds into the fight, Tank A receives his first charge of Pain, which will last for 25 seconds, and thus ends 35 seconds into the fight.
- 20 seconds into the fight, Tank A receives his second charge of Pain, which causes the entire stack to last for 25 seconds from that moment, so the entire stack ends 45 seconds into the fight.
- 30 seconds into the fight, Tank A receives his third charge of Pain, which causes the entire stack to last for 25 seconds from that moment, so the entire stack ends 55 seconds into the fight.
If Tank A keeps receiving additional charges of Pain, they will continue to stack up and never expire, as each additional charge resets the duration of the entire stack. That's where tank B comes in:
- 32 seconds into the fight, Tank B taunts the boss.
- 40 seconds into the fight, Tank B receives his first charge of Pain, which will last for 25 seconds, and thus ends 65 seconds into the fight.
- 50 seconds into the fight, Tank B receives his second charge of Pain, which causes the entire stack to last for 25 seconds from that moment, so the entire stack ends 75 seconds into the fight.
- 55 seconds into the fight, Tank A's Pain debuff expires. Tank A now taunts the boss back, so Tank B can let his debuff expire.

Tank switches over debuffs are pretty basic fight mechanics. You would know about them if you'd check fight mechanics. While DPS can usually get away not knowing about a fight and just DPSing whatever's in range (assuming you're not doing Heroic or the most difficult bosses), its very important as a tank to know everything there is to know about the fight, even if it doesn't affect the tank directly. Say melee needs to move in a certain direction in a certain phase of the fight, then you better tank the boss in such a position, that it's easy for them to reach it without losing any DPS.

FatbossTV is nice for giving you a quick and dirty rundown of a specific encounter. Icy Veins is nice for rereading stuff over in more detail. Of course, there are plenty of other strategy guides out there.



[quote=Adeya]My paladin sometimes swaps his one-handed weapon and shield for a two-handed sword, mace or polearm to use in such circumstances.[/quote]

Don't! You lose access to AS and SotR, which also means no additional BoG stacks to build up for when you'll be tanking again. The increase in weapon DPS doesn't matter much.



[quote=Adeya]Speaking of DoTs, what happens when the Eternal Flame HoT is in progress?[/quote]

What about it? It's not a debuff, so obviously, Divine Shield doesn't touch it.



[quote=Adeya]Eh, asking out of curiousity: which buff(s) to Spell Haste causes "melee attacks and spells" to have more than 50% Haste? I know that an ability such as CS, J or AS is an "Instant cast" spell, but does Spell Haste affect their cooldown? SoB, per se, reduces the GCD and the specified "Instant cast" spell cooldowns according to Melee Haste.[/quote]

It's base Haste we're interested in, not attack speed or spell haste. Raid buffs increase attack speed and spell haste, and Seal of Insight increases spell haste even further, and those are nice for Seal procs and Eternal Flame ticks, but they don't affect the GCD or ability CDs. Only base Haste does. If you check your character and mouse over attack speed or spell haste, you should also see the base haste value and rating. Note that bonus haste from Thok's Tail Tip DOES count, but this is already included in the rating on your character sheet.

Both Prot and Ret are softcapped at 50%, which is 21250 rating. Any haste rating above that does not reduce your GCD, and therefor is much less useful. Note that for Ret, Mastery starts to become stronger than Haste around 40% Haste, so don't go all out to the cap. For Prot, you want to go all the way up to 50% Haste.



[quote=Adeya]Other than that, the "short reaction time" events that kill my paladin usually are ones that are not part of the "script", i.e., as described in the Dungeon Journal or other sources, for example, when the tank loses aggro and the boss turns around and oneshots the paladin pounding away with HA and AW behind him. When those happen, whether I can react fast enough depends mostly upon how well-rested I am from the previous night's sleep. But it is really frustrating when I am in top form and there's nothing that I can do about it.[/quote]

If the boss just turns around and whacks a DPS, one of three things happened:
1) It's a specific boss encounter event. Check tactics guides to see if you missed anything there.
2) The DPS overaggroed. Run a threat meter such as Skada and keep an eye out for their threat, to see if they're anywhere close to you.
3) They pressed their taunt button. Believe it or not, this happens plenty of times. Combat logs or addons such as RaidBuffStatus can indicate this, and then you know who to blame.



[quote=Adeya]Yes, I know about those. I use the Fist of Justice often, but it usually has no effect upon a raid Boss, and no effect upon most mini-bosses. Oddly, using it sometimes interupts spell-casting or a broadscale attack, but does not appear to effect a "stun" on such a target. It never stops them from resuming a few seconds later.[/quote]

In earlier expansions it used to be the case that Hammer worked as an interrupt on stun immune mobs, but to my knowledge, this is no longer true. Use Rebuke instead. And yes, raid bosses are obviously immune, but a lot of raid bosses have adds that aren't immune.



[quote=Adeya]By far the most common "impairment" that my paladin suffers, especially as a tank, is a "stun" or one of its relatives, e.g, "silenced", "charmed", "disoriented" or "sleep". The only remedy that I've ever found is Every Man For Himself, which has a CD of 2 minutes. It also helps if you have at least one priest in Discipline spec in the raid. They don't do huge DPS but they have great buffs, interrupts, and abilities to remove debuffs.[/quote]

The human racial is awesome! A lot of those effects can also be removed with Divine Shield. Just be sure to create the following macro, so you can press it twice to immediately dispel it. It can also be used to remove Hand of Protection from you (either cast by yourself or by someone else on you), and since Hand of Protection causes Forbearance, removing Hand of Protection does not cast Divine Shield. Give the macro the red question mark icon, and it should change automatically:

#showtooltip Divine Shield
/cancelaura Hand of Protection
/cancelaura Divine Shield
/cast Divine Shield

Oh, and Discipline Priests are healers, so naturally, their DPS is not too high. :P



[quote=Adeya]I don't know that I've ever seen an "interrupt rotation" but I have certainly experienced "chain stuns" in PvP, especially.[/quote]

Interrupt rotations are set up by the raid to counter mob casts. For example, on the 2nd boss in SoO, the protectors. When Rook splits into 3 different mobs, one of the mobs, called Gloom, casts a pretty serious nuke every few seconds. On normal it can be ignored, but if you ignore it on heroic, people are dropping like flies.

However, if all the melee Zerg onto the mob and interrupt when they see a cast, the first cast will surely be interrupted, but their interrupts will be on CD for the next 3 casts. That's why you set up an interrupt rotation. You basically agree "Tank will interrupt first, then melee A, then melee B, then the hunter, then back to the tank again" to guarantee that everyone will be interrupting a different cast.

On Garrosh Heroic you have to set up an interrupt rotation for 15 mobs that are casting at pretty much the same time. :)



As for HA vs SW, take a step back from CLCProt for a moment. I'm not talking about the player missing Grand Crusader casts, but about there not being enough room to use those Grand Crusader casts. While the bonus HoPo gain from CS and J is almost identical for one cast of HA and one cast of SW, HA does not change the rotation, leaving room for a lot more fillers, and thus has a bigger chance of using your Grand Crusader proc before receiving a new one than SW does.

Yes, I'm very aware that HA lasts 18 seconds and SW lasts 30 seconds, but that's not what I'm getting at. If you look at me taking a slice of both the spells, you notice that the SW rotation is locked a lot tighter than the regular HA rotation. In the same period of time, SW probably wastes a lot more GC procs than HA does, because it gives you less room to use them. It also gives less room to use level 90 talents or refresh SS if you don't use EF. Add that SW has a longer CD than HA, and there really is no reason for prot to go SW.

(There's another thing that HA can do that SW cannot. If you know you're going to be stunned, you can use HA 18 seconds before the stun, and by the time you get stunned, you should have a pretty sizeable SotR running, enough to last you through the stun. You can't do that with SW, because you need to continuously build up HoPo for 30 seconds.)

Ret: Go Sanctified Wrath. It's the best option.
Prot: Go either Holy Avenger (if you want control over your extra SotR), or Divine Favor (if you want maximum SotR uptime).
I personally go with Holy Avenger over Divine Favor, because I love the control it gives. In some regards it can be used as a 30 second shield wall, which is insane.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:13 am

As for SoB and the Haste stuff, it's really the base Haste that counts, not the melee attack speed, not the spell haste.

As Theck explained, every 425 haste rating provides you with 1% base Haste. Thok's Tail Tip does apply, but it's benefit is already included in your character's total haste value.

If you mouse over any of the attack speeds, it should say something along the lines of "Haste rating of X grants you Y% attack speed." That line is the important line, that's the one counting towards SoB.

From there, it's easy. At 0% haste, you have a 1.5 second GCD, 4.5 second Crusader Strike, 6.0 second Judgment, etc... So you have 40 GCDs/minute, 13.333 Crusader Strikes per minute, 10 Judgments per minute (but since we prio CS over J, we only cast 8.889 J/minute).

Every 1% additional haste allows you to cast that spell 1% more often. At, say, 10% haste, we get 10% additional GCDs/minute, so 44 GCDs/minute, which makes every GCD last 60/44=1.364 seconds. We get 14.667 Crusader Strikes per minute, so each Crusader Strike CD is 4.091 seconds (still 3 GCDs), etc...

Haste of X% means you get to cast each spell X% more often, which means you gain X% more HoPo (except HoPo from Grand Crusader).
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:31 am

Adeya wrote:I suppose that I could look through my archived clcInfo or the early standalone CLCProt and CLCRet addons, which might reveal when the WoW API call was introduced to obtain the Spell Haste, but that doesn't matter now. The paladin's current Spell Haste is returned by (see also http://wowpedia.org/API_UnitSpellHaste ):

c_haste = 1 + UnitSpellHaste("player") / 100

UnitSpellHaste() returns a floating-point number, to quote Wowpedia "(e.g. 37.650131225586)".

There is no UnitMeleeHaste() function in the current WoW API or any other comparable function that I've been able to find.


I think GetMeleeHaste() is the function you're looking for.

Adeya wrote:As far as I can determine, where M is the Melee Haste (1 + Melee % / 100), I is the Seal of Insight buff (1.10), R is the raid buff (1.05), and S is the Spell Haste (percentage -?-), I should be able to derive :

M x I x R = S
M x R x I = S
M x R = S / I
M = ( S / I ) / R

So with Spell Haste of 35.73% M = (1.3573 / 1.10) / 1.05
M = 1.2339 / 1.05
M = 1.1752
or 17.52%

The +23.39% "Haste:" reported in the Melee section is its value before the Raid buff is applied. If I looked at it during a raid, I suppose that it would show the actual Melee Haste value of 17.52%.


No, your actual melee haste was 23.39%, as reported on the tooltip. Your spell haste was 35.73. You had Seal of Insight active when you took your data, but not the 5% raid buff. I've bolded the part in your math where you got to the 1.2339 value that accurately represents your melee haste.

Also, the raid buff certainly wouldn't reduce your melee haste from 23.39% to 17.52%!

Adeya wrote:
theckhd wrote: Also note that the character sheet is displaying your "attack speed," but calling it "melee haste." As a result, if you're in a raid group with a player that provides the "10% attack speed" buff, it will (misleadingly) show up on your character sheet as melee haste. The effect is multiplicative, like Seal of Insight is for spell haste, but it only affects your melee swing speed.


Now you've thrown a curve ball. :-) It seems to me that you are saying that the "Haste:" percentage shown on line 5 of the Melee section of the Character Panel is not the actual value of the paladin's Melee Haste. But this apparently contradicts your previous assertion that the Melee Haste is the grand total of the Haste attributes on his gear divided by 425, which matches the amount shown as "Haste:" on the paper doll.


There's no contradiction. Several classes provide a "10% attack speed" raid debuff, which increases your melee swing speed (but not your melee haste) by 10% multiplicatively. The character sheet lies - it does not actually display your melee haste, it displays your melee attack speed. So if you have 23.39% melee haste (i.e. from rating), and you're in a raid where the 10% attack speed buff is being provided, your character sheet will tell you that you have a "melee haste" of 35.73% (1.2339*1.1=1.3573).

If you don't have the 10% attack speed buff (ex: ungrouped), then your melee attack speed and melee haste are identical, so the paper doll value will be correct.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:00 am

Adeya wrote:Something that I would like to point out is that I have not been using the "rotation" that Theck, you, and others describe. Frankly, the fly-in-the-ointment is the "filler" signified by the "X" in CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X (repeat). The letter is appropriate since it is customarily used in mathematics to signify the "unknown". In practice, we don't know which such ability follows any CS or J because we don't know which will be off cooldown in the context of any particular implementation of the rotation pattern.

Further, Wrathblood specifies a priority order for them in his OP on the Elitist Jerks Paladin forum, Protection thread (http://forums.elitistjerks.com/page/articles.html/_/world-of-warcraft/prot-54-ef-you-r84 : Avenger Shield > Your level 90 talent > Holy Wrath > Consecration (reverse the order of HW and Cons for multi-target fights).

Hammer of Wrath is omitted, although apparently it triggers a GCD: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=24275 Granted, it is only usable when the target's health drops to 20% or less, but it is often a valuable tool to apply. Also, please note that an AS GC proc is not included with the CS and J HP producers, although it grants 1 HP (3 HP during HA). Like the HoW, you never know when one will happen, but it seems to throw a Monce ("monkey") wrench into the rotation when it does.


For the record, most of the rotation advice you will find comes from simulations I've performed over the years, both here on maintankadin and more recently on my blog. Both are quite explicit about where the L90 talents and Hammer of Wrath fit in (Wrathblood's priority is a little out of date).


Adeya wrote:To me, at least, in this rotation scheme "X" means "except". Incorporating the exceptions into the pattern takes a lot of time -- scanning buttons to see which are off cooldown, then identifying the one that has priority. In application, I have found that consistently following the "rotation" is next to impossible. This is not only because of the exceptions, but because the most powerful and critical abilities are not included -- Shield of the Righteous, Eternal Flame and/or Word of Glory are just a start in the current expansion, for we also have situational "raid cooldowns" -- Divine Protection, Divine Shield, GoAK, and Ardent Defender, in particular.

Yes, SotR and EF/WoG don't trigger a GCD, but tracking which is off cooldown, whether enough HP is available, deciding when and whether to use it, and using the keypress or mouse-button to execute it does take time to do. While one is doing that, continuing the "rotation" is in abeyance. It tends to lead too often to the question, "Okay, now, where was I?"

So I suppose that it works for you. Yep, my mind is not a multi-core CPU, it runs only one process at any given time, and my power of concentration isn't what it was 40 years ago, but I still think ahead 7 - 10 moves while playing chess or Free Cell Pro. It just takes a bit longer. But perhaps I digress.

Then again, perhaps whether one can effectively adopt the "rotation" is largely a matter of having a better UI with appropriately useful addons. Although I have not examined it in detail, apparently the Weak Auras UI is such a construct.


Using fillers properly isn't really that difficult. It's certainly no more difficult than many DPS specs are. Arguably easier, in fact, since the CS & J provide a solid repeatable portion that you can basically perform from muscle memory and our only proc to worry about is Grand Crusader.

A few quick suggestions:
1. UI is definitely a big part of this. I have an old post on UI Construction that may be worth a read. It explains a large chunk of the reasoning behind how I lay out my UI (and thus how the WeakAuras suite is laid out). My particular WA setup may not be ideal for you (or anyone other than me!), but the basic principles I'm applying are fairly universal.

About the fillers in particular, you want to be able to quickly scan and see which ones are available so you can make that decision as quickly as possible. My arrangement puts them in (roughly) priority order right below my character, with cooldown spirals to show when they're not available. So most of the time, I just "know" what's ready because it's always in my peripheral vision (but not on top of my character or obstructing my view).

2. Practice is a large part of execution. You should be able to almost perform the CS and J parts of the rotation in your sleep, by muscle memory. It's got a pattern/rhythm that you can practice. Think of it like learning a new dance step, "1-2-3, 1-3-2, 1-3-3, etc." If you're not quite there yet, that's what you should practice first, because getting the CS & J parts right is the cornerstone of the rotation, both offensively (higher DPS) and defensively (for HPG).

3. Filler priority is not actually that important. If you look at some of the tables in the blog post I linked earlier, the difference between e.g. CS>J>AS>HW>Cons and CS>J>HW>AS>Cons is less than 1% of your overall DPS, and a very minor change in survivability (TMI). Really, any rotation that starts with CS>J>AS>(everything else) will be more than sufficient unless you're a top-tier heroic raider and need to squeeze out every last drop of DPS. I frequently screw up filler priority while actually tanking, because as you noted, there's lots of other stuff going on to pay attention to. It happens. The most important part is that you're casting something in those filler spots, because you lose the most DPS by letting them sit empty.

4. Concerning:
Adeya wrote:To conclude: in my experience, the action priority sequences that I have used respectively for Retribution spec and for Protection spec result in output that generally approximates the current recommended "rotation" as the current "primary" and "secondary" skills, respectively, are displayed to inform the player as to the best one(s) to use. Unfortunately, I have never used any particular tool in an attempt to compare the output of the FCFS Rotation Helper to an automated implementation of the "rotation" as it has been presented, in its particulars, here. So I don't know how they compare in any other way.

That said, using CLCRet and Recount, my paladin usually ranks #4 - #8 in Total Damage, and similar other stats, among 17 PCs performing the DPS role in the raids in which I've played.

This doesn't quite make sense to me. Most of your complaints about prediction are equally (if not more) applicable to the Ret rotation, which doesn't even have the benefit of the rigid CS/J cycle to hold it up. If you can execute the ret rotation, you can certainly execute the prot one. Especially since you use CLCRet and CLCProt, which basically do all of the decision-making logic of the rotation for you. If you code the appropriate priority string into CLCProt, you should have no more trouble executing a near-perfect prot rotation than you do a solid ret rotation.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Thels » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:38 am

theckhd wrote:If you code the appropriate priority string into CLCProt, you should have no more trouble executing a near-perfect prot rotation than you do a solid ret rotation.


Not completely true. All the Ret abilities are on the GCD, so as Ret you press one button per GDC. Prot has SotR and EF outside the GCD, so if you are in the rhythm of pressing one button per GCD, you'll fall hopelessly behind with Prot.

I don't know how CLCProt actually displays it. If it's a single icon telling you what to press next, and you completely rely on that icon, then you suddenly need to press icons a lot faster, and you don't know what icon to press after SotR before the game registered SotR is used, then you suddenly may find yourself with less than half a second to discover which spell to press and then press it in time.

If the addon doesn't give you the information you need to know ahead of time, it'll actually be a hindrance to you.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:12 pm

If you struggle with age, latency, reaction time, find yourself distracted watching for boss abilities or cooldowns, or all of the above, the following two macros might prove useful:

Code: Select all
#showtooltip
/startattack
/castsequence reset=6 Crusader Strike, Judgment, Holy Wrath, Crusader Strike, Consecration, Judgment, Crusader Strike, Sacred Shield


Code: Select all
#showtooltip Avenger's shield
/cast Shield of the Righteous
/cast Avenger's Shield


You can spam them alternately. The first one keeps the base rotation. That rotation has natural gaps where abilities are in cooldown. The second macro will fill in those gaps with SotR or AS (including procs), whichever is available to use as soon as it is available to use. It allows you to watch for things like EF refresh and your defensive coldowns without worrying about the base rotation.

This does not make an optimal rotation, nor is it intended to be so. This is basically training wheels that allow you to concentrate on other things like watching for EF refresh, boss mechanics, or whatever else you need to pay attention to at the time. If you need to step into tanking right away but haven't had the time to master the rotation such that it's second-nature, then this will get you by. That's all it's intended to be and you should always work on the muscle-memory of the standard rotation. It's "close enough".
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:16 pm

Thels wrote:
theckhd wrote:If you code the appropriate priority string into CLCProt, you should have no more trouble executing a near-perfect prot rotation than you do a solid ret rotation.


Not completely true. All the Ret abilities are on the GCD, so as Ret you press one button per GDC. Prot has SotR and EF outside the GCD, so if you are in the rhythm of pressing one button per GCD, you'll fall hopelessly behind with Prot.


This is nitpicking, but I generally don't classify off-GCD abilities like SotR and EF as "rotational" for exactly that reason. The word rotation itself implies a linear sequence of events that are mutually exclusive. SotR and EF happen in parallel with (and independently from) our rotation.

Thels wrote:I don't know how CLCProt actually displays it. If it's a single icon telling you what to press next, and you completely rely on that icon, then you suddenly need to press icons a lot faster, and you don't know what icon to press after SotR before the game registered SotR is used, then you suddenly may find yourself with less than half a second to discover which spell to press and then press it in time.

I assume it's just like CLCRet, and shows the next ability to hit as well as one GCD in the future (or, if everything is on cooldown, it will show the next available ability with a cooldown spiral indicating how long).
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:51 pm

I've not used CLC Prot/Ret in particular, but I have used similar add-ons for other classes and the thing that I found most difficult to deal with was the add-on changing it's mind right before I'm supposed to hit something because something else just came off cooldown. If that's the case, then with the fine timing of the base rotation, I could see issues.

There are also times in our rotation where CS will be on cooldown when Judgment comes off cooldown but we need to wait for the CS because judging before the CS would throw off the rest of the rotation. Is CLC smart enough to deal with that?
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:31 am

I'm pretty sure it does its prediction by looking at what will be available when the current and next GCDs end, not based on the current availability. Haven't looked at CLCProt in a long time, but I think it also had a slider for CS lockout (i.e. how many ms to wait for CS in the situation you describe).
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Adeya » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:43 pm

theckhd wrote:
Adeya wrote: ... There is no UnitMeleeHaste() function in the current WoW API or any other comparable function that I've been able to find.


I think GetMeleeHaste() is the function you're looking for.


It is. Thank you! I looked for that for quite a while before I started looking for a way to calcuate it from Spell Haste. GetMeleeHaste() is not in the Wowpedia category listing, but it does appear on the uncategorized Global functions list ( http://wowpedia.org/Global_functions ). It's one of those functions that you know in your bones must exist, but finding the exact function name depends upon how lucky you are at guessing what it is.

Since that API call is available, apparently I don't need to calculate the paladin's Melee Haste. So my attempt to do that from the information which you gave me is essentially moot. However, no small amount of confusion has arisen in the discussion of this aspect of the character. You did not take issue with anything I wrote as to "what I know about Haste", so I assume that those remarks were correct.

But what I know about "Haste" doesn't resolve to one or more numbers, let alone the formulas which are implemented in the game client and/or game host in which those numbers are used to cacluate other numbers which, ultimately, determine whether the player wins or loses a fight.

Also, the raid buff certainly wouldn't reduce your melee haste from 23.39% to 17.52%!


Frankly, I thought that outcome was suspect. Nonetheless, I dont' see an error in my derivation of the formula from the calculation of Spell Haste that you provided previously. The numbers are simply substituted for the variables in the formula. If the outcome of a calculation is wrong, then the formula must be wrong, so what is the error in the formula? (Assuming that I pressed the right buttons on the calculator, of course.)

Then again, I have no idea what "the raid buff" does or doesn't do. For that matter, I don't recall any mention of a "raid buff" in the spellbook or in any other part of the game sofware. So far I have never found any documentation for it. How do you know that such a thing actually exists?

There are, of course, buffs which PCs can cast upon themselves and/or upon all members of a party or raid: http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetR ... ayAuraInfo

Are you referring to any of them?

Adeya wrote:
theckhd wrote: Also note that the character sheet is displaying your "attack speed," but calling it "melee haste." As a result, if you're in a raid group with a player that provides the "10% attack speed" buff, it will (misleadingly) show up on your character sheet as melee haste. The effect is multiplicative, like Seal of Insight is for spell haste, but it only affects your melee swing speed.


.... It seems to me that you are saying that the "Haste:" percentage shown on line 5 of the Melee section of the Character Panel is not the actual value of the paladin's Melee Haste. But this apparently contradicts your previous assertion that the Melee Haste is the grand total of the Haste attributes on his gear divided by 425, which matches the amount shown as "Haste:" on the paper doll.


theckhd wrote: There's no contradiction. Several classes provide a "10% attack speed" raid debuff, which increases your melee swing speed (but not your melee haste) by 10% multiplicatively. The character sheet lies - it does not actually display your melee haste, it displays your melee attack speed. ....

If you don't have the 10% attack speed buff (ex: ungrouped), then your melee attack speed and melee haste are identical, so the paper doll value will be correct.


Okay, that much I understand (I hope). Of course, an addon doesn't have the eyes to see the paper doll, but there are API functions that will return some of the numbers on it. Unaware of the GetMeleeHaste() API function, I was asking whether the value that the UnitSpellHaste() API function returns could be used to derive the character's Melee Haste. At this point, it doesn't look as though it can be.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Worldie » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:53 pm

The definition of "Raid buff" is assigned to any friendly buff or aura that is assumed to be present in a serious raid environment.

In this case, we are specifically talking of the 10% atk speed aura provided by Frost/Unholy DKs, Enhancement Shamans, Rogues of any spec and certain hunter pets (Serpents if my memory doesn't fail me).
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:10 pm

Adeya wrote:
Also, the raid buff certainly wouldn't reduce your melee haste from 23.39% to 17.52%!


Frankly, I thought that outcome was suspect. Nonetheless, I dont' see an error in my derivation of the formula from the calculation of Spell Haste that you provided previously. The numbers are simply substituted for the variables in the formula. If the outcome of a calculation is wrong, then the formula must be wrong, so what is the error in the formula? (Assuming that I pressed the right buttons on the calculator, of course.)


The error isn't in the formula, it's in the substitution. You plugged in R=1.05, which means you're assuming the 5% spell haste raid buff is active. However, it wasn't active when you took your data. You actually had M=1.2339, I=1.10, and R=1.0. Multiplying those together tives you the 1.3573 that you started with for S.

Adeya wrote:Then again, I have no idea what "the raid buff" does or doesn't do. For that matter, I don't recall any mention of a "raid buff" in the spellbook or in any other part of the game sofware. So far I have never found any documentation for it. How do you know that such a thing actually exists?


This post summarizes the eight major raid buffs, along with which classes/specs provide them. The "5% Spell Haste" raid buff is the one that's relevant to this conversation.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Adeya » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:23 pm

Unfortunately: haste = GetMeleeHaste() is returning 59.2070... while the paladin is attacking a target dummy without any trinket procs or other buffs of any kind, but Melee Haste on the paper doll is +32.04% with Haste 13,619.

theckhd wrote:
Adeya wrote:
Also, the raid buff certainly wouldn't reduce your melee haste from 23.39% to 17.52%!


Frankly, I thought that outcome was suspect. Nonetheless, I dont' see an error in my derivation of the formula from the calculation of Spell Haste that you provided previously. The numbers are simply substituted for the variables in the formula. ....


The error isn't in the formula, it's in the substitution. You plugged in R=1.05, which means you're assuming the 5% spell haste raid buff is active. However, it wasn't active when you took your data. You actually had M=1.2339, I=1.10, and R=1.0. Multiplying those together tives you the 1.3573 that you started with for S.


Ah ... thanks for the clarification! It looks as though I must calculate the value of Melee Haste from the value of Spell Haste after all. So I must find out whether the raid buff that grants +5% to Haste is active, and whether the Seal of Insight is active, too.

theckhd wrote:
Adeya wrote:Then again, I have no idea what "the raid buff" does or doesn't do. For that matter, I don't recall any mention of a "raid buff" in the spellbook or in any other part of the game sofware. So far I have never found any documentation for it. How do you know that such a thing actually exists?


This post summarizes the eight major raid buffs, along with which classes/specs provide them. The "5% Spell Haste" raid buff is the one that's relevant to this conversation.


That's what I supposed to be the case, but I wanted to be sure that you weren't referring to some other "raid buff" buried in the combat system somewhere.
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:05 pm

Adeya wrote:Unfortunately: haste = GetMeleeHaste() is returning 59.2070... while the paladin is attacking a target dummy without any trinket procs or other buffs of any kind, but Melee Haste on the paper doll is +32.04% with Haste 13,619.


Are you sure? While standing in town, a quick "/script print(GetMeleeHaste())" in chat gives me 48.080001831055, which is consistent with the 48.08% haste on my character sheet (alone, so the 10% attack speed buff that incorrectly shows up as haste on character sheet is not active).
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Re: Bastion of Glory

Postby Adeya » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:44 pm

theckhd wrote:
Adeya wrote:Unfortunately: haste = GetMeleeHaste() is returning 59.2070... while the paladin is attacking a target dummy without any trinket procs or other buffs of any kind, but Melee Haste on the paper doll is +32.04% with Haste 13,619.


Are you sure? While standing in town, a quick "/script print(GetMeleeHaste())" in chat gives me 48.080001831055, which is consistent with the 48.08% haste on my character sheet (alone, so the 10% attack speed buff that incorrectly shows up as haste on character sheet is not active).


That is what was returned when I used the API function in the addon that I've been upgrading -- the line of code is exactly as written in the addon. The line beneath it was a normal print() command to send the output to the General tab of the chat window. I could not find any error in it later.

Now: running your script via the chat /command line produces the number 32.0352935102% (which is both his Melee Haste and Spell Haste on the paper doll without any buffs. ATM, the paladin is in Retribution spec without any buffs except the Gaze of the Black Prince.

Using a macro: /run haste = GetMeleeHaste(); print(haste) produces the same number.

So it appears to be working. Since the paladin's Melee Haste and Spell Haste are the same ATM there is no way to verify whether it is the Melee Haste which is returned, but no reason to doubt it, either.

I must try it again in the addon. It doesn't make any sense to be working correctly in the macro and on the /command line but not in CLCProt. There's no reason that I can think of for the number to be anything but the one that is being reported now.

Say, would the buff from Tajing the Cyclone have anything to do with this? It does increase the paladin's speed considerably!! ......

If I find out, then I'll let you know. :-)
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