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Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:37 pm
by Alcarius
So, I was reading something somewhere. I want to say it was over at, but won't swear to that as I honestly don't remember.

The gist of this is: Is there a point where Divine Purpose surpasses Holy Avenger for Prot in terms of SotR uptime? I find I like HA because I consider it an 'on demand' cooldown, that I use as such. Divine Purpose is all about RNG and I wonder how it actually pans out over, say, a 6 or 7 minute fight versus HA?

Is anyone aware of any simulations for this?

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:57 pm
by Fenrìr
Um, I believe Theck's calcs said something around like 25% haste is where DP would pull ahead of HA in terms of DPS. But the CD usage of HA makes it a viable choice.

however, don't quote me on that.

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:34 am
by daishan
I think the 25% haste was if you don't stack HA with wings and I don't think that was making any allowances for the fact that we usually use HA when at high veng.
Would be great to see a better break down of the dps and survival numbers. I'm guessing HA will be the best survival and dps talent on tank switch fights even at very high levels of haste as you can blow it while you're tanking instead of having procs while off tanking.

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:12 am
by Worldie
Essentially the on demand nature of HA makes it superior to DP in just every situation. RNG and mitigation don't go well toghether.

Only situation where DP would pull ahead is DPS-wise eventually, but DPS shouldn't really be something you should worry about.

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:18 pm
by Alcarius
See, what I remember reading, is that at higher haste DP could offer more SotR uptime throughout the course of a fight.

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:02 am
by Worldie
Higher uptime means nothing if you can't guarantee it'll be up when it's necessary
Tanks arent dps: overall damagetaken hardly means anything, all that means is that in those critical moments we used one (or more) of the tools at our disposal

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:41 am
by Nooska
Well these days Tanks are dps (at leats in 10's) - Sag handily beat some of the not bad (but not super) about equally geared (or higher in some cases) on the dps contributions to bossfights in MSV/HoF that we did.

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:30 am
by Sagara
Was also using HA to exploit wings/pots/Hero. I should respec for more Haste - specced for more Stam when we started 25s, and I'm laggingwith the worst dpsers :-/

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:21 pm
by Worldie
I wasnt referring to the tank's dps with that sentence >.>

I was merely saying that overall damage taken hardly means anything for a tank while overall DPS is essentially the most important thing for a DPS after survival.

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:52 am
by theckhd
Oops, I saw the private message in my inbox before I saw this thread. I'll just copy/paste my response here:

theckhd wrote:Divine Purpose ends up giving you higher overall SotR uptime somewhere around 20%-25% haste, give or take a few percent. I don't have a more accurate estimate than that at the moment.

That said, I think that figure is highly misleading, because overall uptime isn't a good metric for this sort of thing. It might be if you were tanking Patchwerk, but most of the bosses in Throne of Thunder (and other modern raid instances) include tank swaps, periods of time off-target, and periods of high risk or high damage intake. All of those slant the comparison very heavily towards Holy Avenger.

For example, take Jin'rokh (on either normal or heroic). First of all, there's a tank swap, so you're only actually tanking about 50% of the time. Second, he has a 20-30 second phase where everyone runs away, during which you're not taking any melee damage.

In the "best-case" approximation, that means that 30 seconds worth of the Holy Avenger cooldown occurs during a phase in which you're not taking damage anyway. The remaining 1 minute and 30 seconds are split between the tanks, so you're really only tanking for 45 seconds. If you make sure to use HA when you begin tanking to get the full uptime, you're getting 25-30 seconds of 100% SotR coverage in that 45-second period, for a time average of somewhere around 80%. That's going to dwarf the ~55%-60% that Divine Purpose will give you.

Even if we make a more conservative comparison, and assume that we have to delay Holy Avenger's usage by ~30 seconds on average in order to make sure we're only using it when we take damage, that's still giving you about 72% uptime, a fair bit ahead of Divine Purpose.

The DPS breakpoint is in the same vicinity, though again that's assuming constant Vengeance. Since you always have more Vengeance while actively tanking, that slants the comparison more in Holy Avenger's favor, as does the fact that you can line it up with every other Avenging Wrath.

This has come up a few times - I should really write a blog post about it.

Re: Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:13 am
by Schroom
this is axactly my pouint of view. allthough, as I get my 25% haste with a haste/stam mix build I usually handle it like this: am I tanking 100% of the time (like horridon HM without tankswaps/ tortos HM) and I don't HA to use it as a second GoAK or raid CD (wog the whole raid like crazy) nor to burst the hell out of something on a specific phase, then and only then I go for DiPurp.

fromt he 5 HMs I played yet that's Horridon (tanking Horridon the whole fight) and Tortos (tanking Tortos himself not the bats). Qon HM I solotank as well, allthough I found HA the bether option on this fight. because I need that 100% SoTR coverage starting Phase 4 and as WoG support for the raid in Phase 1.