Question about Haste vs Mastery

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Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Ergil » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:03 am

Right now most paladins seem to agree that haste is about equally as good as mastery and all the simulations also show this result, but I do not quite understand why this is the case. I understand the argumentation behind it (more CS -> more HoPo -> more ShotR), but what's bothering me is, that I do not see how haste really increases our ShotR-rate, as even if our main abilities CDs are decreased, the GCD shouldn't be touched by haste (assuming the German tooltip of Sanctity of Battle is correct, as there is no GCD mentioned) and so we wouldn't actually gain anything if we do not reach a ~3 sec CS.
I would be pleased if someone could help me out here :)
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:23 am

Well, haste does impact the GCD, in fact. So more haste -> more casts -> more HoPo
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Ergil » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:42 am

Ok, I thougt so, thnak you.
Out of curiosity, does it only affect the GCD caused by the abilities which are affected by haste or every GCD (DS and SS e.g.)?
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:45 am

AFAIK, it affect all GCD's.
Don't take my word for it, though.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:01 am

It reduces the GCD of any ability listed on Sanctity of Battle, as well as any other "spell" abilities.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby jsantana » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:41 pm

With Theck Wonderful Graphs and to sum it all up haste is quite valuable, but requires an discipline way to maintain its use of generating HoPo during a boss fight. A number of things to keep in mind in regards to haste and its effectiveness to a protection paladin passive ability Sanctity of Battle and other paladin abilities.

1. Seal of Insight - as becoming the defacto tanking seal for prot pally, has the benefit on melee hits to heal self, return mana, and with the glyph of the battle healer, 30% of the hit healing a player with lowest health within 30 yards of the paladin is further benefited by increase haste (the spell casting haste on the seal - doesn't apply, only specifically 'casting' spells) as it lowers your attack speed allowing you swing more, more heals self-healing, more raid healing; however, I do not know if their's an internal cool down on the melee hit of SOI self-healing and battle-healer, I would suspect both are tied to the same or separate. SOI does benefit from melee raid haste buff such as Unholy Aura (clarification anyone?).

2. Sacred Shield ES and Light Hammer- HoTs does scale with haste for more ticks I believe, especially AP for bigger absorb shields, I believe this benefits from spell haste rather than melee haste (also need clarification here?).

3.Unbreakable Spirit - the more use of HoPo will result in faster up time to the listed abilities, haste scaling well here because you're accessing faster use of CS, HOTR, and Judgment as their GCD are reduced by a x amount of haste.

4. The goal that some prot paladins out there I 'm sure trying to achieve. A 100% up time Shield of the Righteous, I did some napkin math in determining whats a realistic amount of haste to get close to that up time, I suspect 40% plus haste to closely get that uptime and the discipline needed to utilize the use of CS, HOTR, and Judgment; however, what I don't like about this methodology is possibly sacrificing the use of other stronger dps, threat abilities such as non-proc AS, HW, Consecration in a rotation. Its wiser to scope out a x amount of haste to not only see the benefit of SOTR up time, but also the benefit of SOI proc, glyph of Battle Healer proc, Sacred Shield ticks, Unbreakable Spirit, and LH & ES as well. IMO, I'm pushing a balance of haste and mastery to create a solid synergy with reduce dmg taken, some level of controllable HoPo generation, HPS.

Keep in mind, raid buffs like Unholy Aura increases attacking speed, has not effect on sanctity of the battle...

I wouldn't mind seeing some advance theory crafting surrounding what could be an ideal x amount of haste and mastery synergy in tier 14 stats after hard capping hit & expertise, especially what x amount of haste would be a burden to dps and threat on 100% SOTR uptime, by not utilizing HW, Con, non-proc AS in a normal rotation.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:31 pm

Yes, you will get more Seal of Insight procs by stacking haste, as well as more Battle Healer healing. The haste that SoI grants is spell haste, so it doesn't buff itself that way, but melee haste (from haste rating) will. Unholy Aura will give you more white swings (which does buff SoI and GoBH procs) even though it doesn't interact with Sanctity of Battle.

Sacred Shield scales with spell haste (including the 10% from SoI) to get more ticks just like any DoT/HoT. Execution Sentence and Light's Hammer do not scale with haste at all.

Haste will also affect Unbreakable Spirit in exactly the way you described, but it's not a huge effect (it'll shave a few seconds off of Divine Protection, a little more off of LoH).

100% uptime on SotR is more or less impossible. Your numbers are way off - 40% haste won't get you anywhere near it. You'd need in excess of 150% haste, and I think you'd hit the 1-second GCD cap well before that (provided that still exists - I think it does, but I haven't tested it lately).
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby jsantana » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:34 pm

Regarding the 40% was just looking at the cooldown portion of Crusader Strike for example as I figured it would have been some ridiculous amount to reduce the global cool down. Probably, why I would emphasize balance with stats to create a synergy, because the reality is in a raid there's too much going to perfectly execute the utilization of those spells affected by sanctity of battle, when available. Especially, given a 3 second duration on the shield of the righteous not as obvious as some other tank abilities death knight blood shield I believe having a 10 second duration on a death strike use, druid having a 6 second duration on their two main survival abilities or warriors block/barrier. Reminds me of timing shield of the righteous right before shadowy attack landed to reduce the melee component of the damage was more work than its own, while I was raiding my guild in that fight with the assignments. But mastery is still a great stat to shoot for and creating some balance with haste is a win/win situation. Did they include diminishing return on mastery? I couldn't find anything whether it was live or how much it diminishes against parry and dodge. Probably missed one of your articles on it theck!!! :(
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Schroom » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:51 am

mh interesting stuff here. Does anyone know how many haste rating we would need to get the CS CD back to 3 Seconds to play Catastyle? I would call this the first hastecap.

are there any other "hastecaps" for prot. as we know it from DPS classes? tick-breakpoints and so on. would love to know this :)

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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby daishan » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:28 am

If i'm thinking about it right 3 sec CS and the 1 sec gcd both need 50% haste rating, unless blizz put in an extra tier like in WotLK I doubt they'll let ppl hit the gcd cap from static stats maybe while procs are up long way off for now :p

I think I read that the raid spell haste buff gives us 1 extra tick on SS would be great if someone could list how much haste we need on gear to get a 2nd and 3rd extra tick.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby jsantana » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:29 am

Well Theck stated you will need insane amount of haste to reduce GCD possibly 150%, whereas, haste effect on CD alone should easily be calculated with basic math. I don't know the formula for reducing the GCD for sanctity of battle for paladins but I believe 50% alone will bring down the Crusader and Hammer of the righteous CD from 4.5 to 2.25 and Judgment from 6 to 3 sec CD to get a decent SOTR up time, remember CS, HOTR vs Judgment are on a different CD (default with no haste 4.5 vs 6) to able unlikely achieve due to their gap difference in CD usage along with the duration of SOTR. I really don't know how much haste at 50% actually reduces the GCD piece. However, I do believe the default GCD for most classes is 1.5 sec or maybe higher.

Let's focus on swing timer, spell cd of our HoPo generators, the default GCD should be 1.5 sec, that will easily result in a rotation Crusader Strike -> Judgement -> X -> Crusader Strike -> X -> Judgement -> Crusader strike -> X -> X. What would happen once we push CS to 3 sec CD and Judgment to a 4.5 sec CD with 35% haste(wonder how much of the GCD is actually reduced here). Crusader Strike -> Judgement -> X -> Crusader Strike -> Judgement -> ?

Most importantly, I would suspect gemming haste with strength after of course hard capping hit and expertise, there's a strong synergy with haste/str (5% raid buff to stat, could possibly include str flask) due to 50% of our attack power is spell power, obviously vengeance will have a greater effect on it to scale our SOI and battle healer, sacred shield. It might not be ideal to gem for str in any point now in the content, since you may want to still balance mastery and haste, and still encompass fights where EH is important, imo like Elegon. Furthermore, mastery buff to bastion of glory for high magic dmg fights.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:15 am

Schroom wrote:mh interesting stuff here. Does anyone know how many haste rating we would need to get the CS CD back to 3 Seconds to play Catastyle? I would call this the first hastecap.

I wouldn't at all call it a "cap." There's functionally nothing special that happens when CS is 3.0 seconds instead of, say, 3.1, 3.2, etc.

daishan wrote:If i'm thinking about it right 3 sec CS and the 1 sec gcd both need 50% haste rating

Correct.

daishan wrote:I think I read that the raid spell haste buff gives us 1 extra tick on SS would be great if someone could list how much haste we need on gear to get a 2nd and 3rd extra tick.

Yes, it does. You get extra ticks at 10%, 30%, 50%, 70%, etc. (spell haste). Basically any time 5*(decimalHaste) ends in 0.5. Note that the game does something funny with rounding ("banker's rounding") so the exact breakpoints may be ~1 rating high or lower than the exact value, but I don't think anyone is going to be trying to hit those break points exactly anyhow as they're mostly irrelevant in practice.

jsantana wrote:Well Theck stated you will need insane amount of haste to reduce GCD possibly 150%

No, I said that it would take >150% haste to get you 100% uptime on Shield of the Righteous. Every bit of haste you have reduces the GCD.

jsantana wrote:haste effect on CD alone should easily be calculated with basic math. I don't know the formula for reducing the GCD for sanctity of battle for paladins but I believe 50% alone will bring down the Crusader and Hammer of the righteous CD from 4.5 to 2.25 and Judgment from 6 to 3 sec CD to get a decent SOTR up time

Luckily, I do know the formula, because the one you're using isn't it. :P

50% haste does not cut the cooldown in half. The formula for both spell cooldowns and global cooldowns affected by Sanctity of Battle is the same as every other haste effect in the game:

hastedCooldown=baseCooldown/(1+haste%)

So, for example, at 10% haste, you get the following values:
CS: 4.5/(1+0.1)=4.091s
J: 10/(1+0.1)=9.091s
GCD: 1.5/(1+0.1)=1.364s

At 50% haste, it's:
CS: 4.5/(1+0.5)=3s
J: 6/(1+0.5)=4s
GCD: 1.5/(1+0.5)=1s

At this point, I think you hit the 1-second GCD cap (again, if it exists - I think it still does, but I honestly haven't tested it in forever, so it may be gone - best bet is to check the Rogue or caster theorycrafting sites, they should actually know for sure).

With 0 haste, you'll be generating a little less than 0.4 holy power per second. Thus, in order to raise that to 1 HP per second (which is the minimum threshold for 100% SotR uptime in the steady state), you'd need nearly 150% haste (0.4*2.5=1 HP/s).

jsantana wrote:Most importantly, I would suspect gemming haste with strength after of course hard capping hit and expertise, there's a strong synergy with haste/str (5% raid buff to stat, could possibly include str flask) due to 50% of our attack power is spell power, obviously vengeance will have a greater effect on it to scale our SOI and battle healer, sacred shield. It might not be ideal to gem for str in any point now in the content, since you may want to still balance mastery and haste, and still encompass fights where EH is important, imo like Elegon. Furthermore, mastery buff to bastion of glory for high magic dmg fights.

There actually isn't much synergy at all with haste/str. STR is relatively weak when raiding simply because so much of your attack power comes from Vengeance. Even in normal modes, you're going to be better off gemming pure haste.

I also don't think it's good advice to advocate "balancing" stats. There's nothing fundamentally advantageous about doing so. All it does is shift more of your mitigation from active (hit/exp/haste) to passive (mastery/dodge/parry). Mastery straddles the line there, as it's obviously factored into your active mitigation, but in practice it's more important whether or not you have the SotR buff up, not how big it is. 30% off of two attacks is better than 40% off of one and 0% off of the other.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby jsantana » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:47 am

theckhd wrote:
Schroom wrote:mh interesting stuff here. Does anyone know how many haste rating we would need to get the CS CD back to 3 Seconds to play Catastyle? I would call this the first hastecap.

I wouldn't at all call it a "cap." There's functionally nothing special that happens when CS is 3.0 seconds instead of, say, 3.1, 3.2, etc.

daishan wrote:If i'm thinking about it right 3 sec CS and the 1 sec gcd both need 50% haste rating

Correct.

daishan wrote:I think I read that the raid spell haste buff gives us 1 extra tick on SS would be great if someone could list how much haste we need on gear to get a 2nd and 3rd extra tick.

Yes, it does. You get extra ticks at 10%, 30%, 50%, 70%, etc. (spell haste). Basically any time 5*(decimalHaste) ends in 0.5. Note that the game does something funny with rounding ("banker's rounding") so the exact breakpoints may be ~1 rating high or lower than the exact value, but I don't think anyone is going to be trying to hit those break points exactly anyhow as they're mostly irrelevant in practice.

jsantana wrote:Well Theck stated you will need insane amount of haste to reduce GCD possibly 150%

No, I said that it would take >150% haste to get you 100% uptime on Shield of the Righteous. Every bit of haste you have reduces the GCD.

jsantana wrote:haste effect on CD alone should easily be calculated with basic math. I don't know the formula for reducing the GCD for sanctity of battle for paladins but I believe 50% alone will bring down the Crusader and Hammer of the righteous CD from 4.5 to 2.25 and Judgment from 6 to 3 sec CD to get a decent SOTR up time

Luckily, I do know the formula, because the one you're using isn't it. :P

50% haste does not cut the cooldown in half. The formula for both spell cooldowns and global cooldowns affected by Sanctity of Battle is the same as every other haste effect in the game:

hastedCooldown=baseCooldown/(1+haste%)

So, for example, at 10% haste, you get the following values:
CS: 4.5/(1+0.1)=4.091s
J: 10/(1+0.1)=9.091s
GCD: 1.5/(1+0.1)=1.364s

At 50% haste, it's:
CS: 4.5/(1+0.5)=3s
J: 6/(1+0.5)=4s
GCD: 1.5/(1+0.5)=1s

At this point, I think you hit the 1-second GCD cap (again, if it exists - I think it still does, but I honestly haven't tested it in forever, so it may be gone - best bet is to check the Rogue or caster theorycrafting sites, they should actually know for sure).

With 0 haste, you'll be generating a little less than 0.4 holy power per second. Thus, in order to raise that to 1 HP per second (which is the minimum threshold for 100% SotR uptime in the steady state), you'd need nearly 150% haste (0.4*2.5=1 HP/s).

jsantana wrote:Most importantly, I would suspect gemming haste with strength after of course hard capping hit and expertise, there's a strong synergy with haste/str (5% raid buff to stat, could possibly include str flask) due to 50% of our attack power is spell power, obviously vengeance will have a greater effect on it to scale our SOI and battle healer, sacred shield. It might not be ideal to gem for str in any point now in the content, since you may want to still balance mastery and haste, and still encompass fights where EH is important, imo like Elegon. Furthermore, mastery buff to bastion of glory for high magic dmg fights.

There actually isn't much synergy at all with haste/str. STR is relatively weak when raiding simply because so much of your attack power comes from Vengeance. Even in normal modes, you're going to be better off gemming pure haste.

I also don't think it's good advice to advocate "balancing" stats. There's nothing fundamentally advantageous about doing so. All it does is shift more of your mitigation from active (hit/exp/haste) to passive (mastery/dodge/parry). Mastery straddles the line there, as it's obviously factored into your active mitigation, but in practice it's more important whether or not you have the SotR buff up, not how big it is. 30% off of two attacks is better than 40% off of one and 0% off of the other.



So it comes down to play style and disciplinary reaction to effectively using the HoPo generators rather than those abilities sitting there. Thanks for the formula on haste, at least in this tier its going to be difficult to realistically achieve higher haste thresholds. As I read somewhere, if the tank is sloppy with the rotation to have a decent uptime of SOTR for big hits and banking his BOG for spikey magic dmg, he's better off as Theck suggested in another post I read somewhere - mastery/avoidance. Great example, with valuing haste > 30% off of two attacks is better than 40% off of one and 0% off of the other against mastery, but of course due to the nature of reacting to the use of HoPo generators. Wanted to clarify, what are bosses default melee swing timer? 1.5 or 2 or 2.5?
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:42 pm

The default swing timer is supposed to be 1.5 seconds, in theory. The way it was described was that any boss where the melee throughput was supposed to be dangerous should be 1.5. Other bosses can vary.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Lightvein » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:38 pm

So is it Mastery > Haste or Haste > Mastery? I'm currently going Stam > Hit > Exp > Mastery Haste.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:02 am

Kind of a tossup. Haste has the advantage of higher DPS, at the cost of faster spamming (requiring quicker reaction time for roughly equal defensive results).

I'd say go for haste first, and if the rythm is "too fast", switch to mastery.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby daishan » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:35 am

I'm gearing haste > mastery atm. I did have a thought about tank switch fights that might mean mastery is better for those, if we're cleaver with our SotR use on fights where we aren't getting beat on all the time haste would have a smaller effect on our effective SotR uptime. Making mastery a more effective damage reducer on those types of fights?
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Treck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:03 am

Well, you mean as in, you have 5 HP when you start tanking, effectively making haste "useless" (in terms of dmg reduction) to get those 5 HP, and mastery would just increase the benefit from that, yes mastery should be slightly better at that very instant.
But after those 6sec (if you are using all HP for shields) you need the haste to build up holypower fast again.
It should make tank swaps a lot smoother if you aim for mastery.
Take will of the emperor as an example, its a very gimmicky fight, but its craptons of tank damage, but you can always start with 5x holypower, Id say that mastery clearly wins here over haste due to that very fact, I dont feel an extra 5% haste would change the effective uptime on shield of the righteous much, but at the same time even when haste geared, if you ever die, its cause the buff wasnt up, you dont get killed while its up (unless the hit before took you really low.
It could be argued both ways, either that you didnt have enough haste to get another shieldslam off, or if you had more mastery you wouldnt go so low after a hit.

But my general feel is that shield of the righteous is so strong even without much mastery (not to mention 4set tier, +10% free mitigation on shield), that there is little need to increase the reduction if you can choose to increase the uptime.

Still, what holds true is that mastery and haste are changing "values" depending depending on the encounter, altho most of the time its going to be very small differance.
I prefer haste for its smoothing out properties.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:07 am

Treck wrote:But my general feel is that shield of the righteous is so strong even without much mastery (not to mention 4set tier, +10% free mitigation on shield), that there is little need to increase the reduction if you can choose to increase the uptime.

Still, what holds true is that mastery and haste are changing "values" depending depending on the encounter, altho most of the time its going to be very small differance.
I prefer haste for its smoothing out properties.


Haste is also extra DPS, and more SoI/GoBH heals.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby jsantana » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:35 am

Depends on the fight and playstyle, and of course the pros and cons between haste vs. Mastery. Mastery affects our sotr dmg buff, increases bog, and increases our block chance; whereas, haste will affect our soi, sacred shield,battle healer,and dps I could think of. If it's fight with fast hitting mobs or even just multiple mobs mastery seems stronger due block chance but that depends how well soi,sacred shield,battle healer would do against the x amount of values in dmg mitigation, hps, and dps. I think haste is awesome rating to shoot because with this content raid there is many fights with raid wide dmg,especially going into heart of fear a few fights with adds.the will of the emperor given how hard the boss hits I think mastery would seem more appealing to have that extra block chance and bog buff when those bosses drop you low on hp.but I haven't done any math to weigh the difference between the effectiveness of mastery vs. Haste impact on our stats, rating stats, talents, glyphs, against different boss type fights. I believe theck has a sim with haste vs. Mastery but right now dude, getting enough haste in our gear progression is very small because we want to make sure we are hit cap and hard expertise, at leverage some EH, don't wanna be a tank under 500k or 450k hp later into the tier then again depends how good your gear is with those stats. Hopefully this gives you some insight.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Treck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:35 am

I was speaking purely about mitigation, but yes it has even more benefits, but mastery also has the passive block and increased WoG heals (bastion however is just like shield of the righteous, its very strong even without mastery)
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby jsantana » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:02 am

daishan wrote:I'm gearing haste > mastery atm. I did have a thought about tank switch fights that might mean mastery is better for those, if we're cleaver with our SotR use on fights where we aren't getting beat on all the time haste would have a smaller effect on our effective SotR uptime. Making mastery a more effective damage reducer on those types of fights?



First rule to scope out is what type of fight is that could require better use of haste or mastery. If Will of the Emp, then I see mastery being advantageous, if its elegon, then haste seems more appealing. Best way to figure out reforge in a quick moment in each fight is to go to ask mr robot and there are two pre set stat for mastery or haste thats based off of theck theory crafting.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby Lightvein » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:01 pm

What should we be aiming for Expertise-wise? Mr. Robot seems to think it's 15%, so the Haste vs. Mastery argument seems rather moot since every reforge is going for Exp.
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Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby jsantana » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:18 pm

7.5% hit and 15% exprtise and then mastery vs haste becomes more valuable. The logic is your HoPo generators wont ever miss nor be dodged/parried thus more control building up HoPo to utilize the use of SOTR more predictably. Whereas, if one of your HoPo generators were parried you just lost that ability to generate HoPo and have to wait for the next ability to come off CD generates HoPo. This could result in a situation with boss melee swing and possible combination of a mechanic possibly killing you or bringing you to low HP. Lets say Elegon hits u with celestial breath with high stacks of the debuff, and drops you to 30% and your at 2 HoPo and CS is up for to get that extra HoPo in order to strike SOTR, but elegon just parried that ability and no HoPo and hits u with melee swing of that drops you to 10k hp at that point your gambling with the healer reacting quickly to top u off or you pop a cd to save you from the next blow, i rather be expertise cap, get my HoPo at 3 charges and strike SOTR and mitigate that melee swing and giving my healer a realistic time to react and maybe use survival cd like divine protection glyph to minimize the next set of dmg for the next 10 seconds as my OT comes over to taunt switch.
Last edited by jsantana on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:06 pm
Location: Lawrence, MA

Re: Question about Haste vs Mastery

Postby jsantana » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:20 pm

Forgot to mention the first half of 7.5 % of expertise prevent the boss from dodging your attack and the rest of the 7.5% prevent the boss from parrying your attacks = 15%, which completely removes the bosses (lvl 93) ability to dodge and parry your attacks.
jsantana
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:06 pm
Location: Lawrence, MA

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