5.04 AOE DPS is low

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5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby angelflavor » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:35 am

Last 2 10man Dragon Soul raids I've been in I've noticed my AOE dps and threat has been low compared to the other tanks in the raid(the other tank was a Warrior one night and a DK the other). I was wondering am I doing something wrong or if Paladin AOE dps is just lower than other tanks. If so is it just level 85 where this is a problem or is it one at level 90 too.

I've been using the normal Protection rotation only changes are listed below.

Seal of the Righteous
Hammer of the Righteous (no CS)
Avenger Shield non gylphed
Holy Wrath non gylphed
Word of Glory (rarely ShotR) glyphed for 3% to 9% extra damage when used.

So am I doing something wrong or so other tanks have better AOE threat?
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby Gab » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:49 am

My guild has taken a break from raiding until MoP so I haven't tanked since the 5.0.4 changes and I only tanked 4 instances in the beta up to 90 all other leveling was done as Ret.

That said I don't see consecrate in your list. Consecrate got a serious buff last I heard and now has a lower cooldown and doesn't mana starve us if used on CD. If you aren't using consecrate then that's probably the problem.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby daishan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:18 am

Yep Cons is ahead of HW single target, I think it beats AS somewhere around 5/6 targets.
I haven't done that much tanking since the patch but it does seem we're lower on aoe threat.
If your co tank is getting to trash packs before you, you'll really struggle to get threat off him, he'll just be getting more and more vengeance for the first 20 sec and now we only have 1 single target taunt getting our own vengeance up is hard.
I'd suggest putting HoSal on him or BoP :D
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby angelflavor » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:35 am

Man I was hoping it was me, but it sounds like a balance issue. Any idea if its better at lvl 90?
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby daishan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:51 am

Might get slightly better at 90, but I think the root of the problem is the fact that the tank that gets to the mobs first just gets all the vengeance.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby Volitaire » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:01 am

I noticed this alot last night as we needed to go into FL and thus alot of larger trash pulls. Even with me pulling the trash initially our warrior would blow past me on dps/threat in AOE situations. Single target was pretty comfortable. (though boss taunt swapping early in fight was a major PITA)
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby daishan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:06 am

I know warriors where very op on aoe they got some nerfs but probably still ahead of us.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby angelflavor » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:08 am

Yea even when I get mobs 1st or taunt our Offtank can pull right me. Good news our single target seems to be on par with the other tanks for the most part.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby Treck » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:07 pm

daishan wrote:Might get slightly better at 90, but I think the root of the problem is the fact that the tank that gets to the mobs first just gets all the vengeance.

ONLY due to the lvl 90 talents that gives us a little bit of AoE.
Holy Prism is low dmg, but atleast its burst aoe dmg.
Lights hammer is shitloads of dmg, but slow working like consecration.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:43 pm

daishan wrote:Yep Cons is ahead of HW single target, I think it beats AS somewhere around 5/6 targets.

Cons pulls ahead of AS at two targets.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby Treck » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:03 pm

AS with focused glyph i assume you mean, doesnt make sense otherwise, since AS doesnt care if it hits one or 3 targets, same with consecration.
But as soon as you have one more than AS can hit, consecration wins.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby angelflavor » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:07 pm

theckhd wrote:
daishan wrote:Yep Cons is ahead of HW single target, I think it beats AS somewhere around 5/6 targets.

Cons pulls ahead of AS at two targets.


Alright I will start doing that!
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:27 pm

Treck wrote:AS with focused glyph i assume you mean, doesnt make sense otherwise, since AS doesnt care if it hits one or 3 targets, same with consecration.
But as soon as you have one more than AS can hit, consecration wins.

No, I mean AS period. AS does less damage than Consecration at raid levels of Vengeance AP. Here are the numbers with the Focused Shield glyph at 100k Vengeance:
Code: Select all
---100k Vengeance ---

| Ability |    Raw |    Dmg |    AoE |   Heal |
|      AS | 130943 | 117366 |      0 |      0 |
|    Cons | 120617 | 108111 | 108111 |      0 |


Thus, if Glyphed AS and Cons are both hitting only one target, AS wins. If you can hit a second target, Cons > Glyphed AS.

If you take off the glyph, AS does less damage than Cons does even on a single target. So Cons > Unglyphed AS regardless of the number of targets hit.

Hence: if you can hit two targets, Cons > AS.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby econ21 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:48 am

I just read on the MMO-Champion ret sticky to use hotr over cs when there are 4+ targets and SoR over SoT when there are 6+. Is that just a ret thing and if so I wonder what the thresholds are for us? As prot, I've been using hotr when there is more than one target and SoR when, cough, I can remember. I recall Theckhd's single target numbers for us showed cs did not give that big a dps over hotr, so I feel ok using hotr on 2 targets. But I don't have a clue about seals.

EDIT: Seems to be 3+ targets for SoR:

http://i.wow.joystiq.com/2012/08/09/mis ... -paladins/
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby angelflavor » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:01 am

Even with all this advise I really hope my threat can compete with the other tanks in my guild. >_> ever since BC I have my the "AoE Tank" of the guild. It will feel odd any other way.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby hightin » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:31 am

The trick is to get in first and BoP your partner and taunt as often as possible, and then finally when even all that isn't working do what I do, go make a sammy and let the warriors/bears/DKs have fun. I wish they would go back to the good ol days before vengence and give us a better +threat system.

The bigger problem I have with aggro is tank swaps. I find I have to work so hard to just have the other tanks pull it right back off me in the first 5 seconds cause vengence is worthless before 20 seconds. Maybe one day they will remove the bandaid and either give us actual DPS, nerf it for PvP if they need to they do that all the time, or just say screw it here is your +threat. They could totally scale +threat with mastery so we scale our threat with a stat we care about like they promised us in the first place. Oh how I dream of the day.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby Belloc » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:58 am

Don't forget about switching seals when you want to AOE tank.
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby Tholle » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:45 pm

Yes, AoE dps is quite low after the patch, and getting aggro on mobs if the other tank jumps in first can be almost impossible without BoP'ing or taunting.
Hopefully things will balance out once we hit 90 and get Light's Hammer or Holy Prism, which should be some pretty nice AoE abilities and help at lot with our AoE dps and threat. (Or maybe Blizz just ought to give protection pallies Inquisition back). :wink:
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Re: 5.04 AOE DPS is low

Postby Treck » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:44 am

Tholle wrote:Yes, AoE dps is quite low after the patch, and getting aggro on mobs if the other tank jumps in first can be almost impossible without BoP'ing or taunting.
Hopefully things will balance out once we hit 90 and get Light's Hammer or Holy Prism, which should be some pretty nice AoE abilities and help at lot with our AoE dps and threat. (Or maybe Blizz just ought to give protection pallies Inquisition back). :wink:

Lights hammer is a lot of aoe damage, but its not burst.
Holy Prism will help you get initial aggro so that maybe you get enough vengeance to keep the adds on you, but atleast against a monk/warrior (those I have most experience against at lvl 90), you dont stand a chance.
When you are alone tank, the lvl 90 abilities will for sure help you out when AoEing (and yes inq would be nice since we lack an aoe finisher anyway, if you dont count WoG with the 9% dmg increase glyph!), but sadly if you are in group with another tank, he will pretty much always rip aggro from you and you are left with no vengeance and cant really do much ;(

also, welcome to the forum ^^
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