6.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:21 pm

Yeah, 10-man doesn't seem to be as stressful with tank damage, so I can see that gem strategy. I'm around 710k health fully raid buffed, and if I could pick up more for Lei Shi, I would.

I still don't think I'd ever take LAotL, though. I've never been a fan of uneven (i.e. on/off) speed boosts (it's one of the things that irritated me about Windwalk), and LAotL takes that to an extreme. In fact, if I could glyph PoJ to give me a 20% flat run speed, I would (the 15% base is the main reason I take that talent in the first place). But that may just be my bias.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Worldie » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:43 pm

You are not alone in your bias Theck ;)
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:06 pm

I just dont get why you would go for haste (aka reliability) and then choose LAotL for unreliability ;(
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Cragwell » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:42 am

Eh, like I said. Its up almost always and the choice when I need to wait for a speed buff is a one or two second choice. Overall speed return is higher than either of the other two talents once your haste makes it so. Top PoJ returns require a constant store of HoPo which is sort of the same thing as choosing a slight change in rotation from time to time.

I will talent into Speed of Light when the fight suits it, I just haven't found there to be a fight where LAotL is outdone by PoJ in a haste build.

The word "inconsistent" keeps coming up for a speed buff that I have over half the time while doing my best rotation. I don't see how that can be considered inconsistent in any form. If I do choose to "game" the rotation to guarantee LA when I want it, then we are talking a loss of about one GCD. That's hardly an earth shattering change to a tank rotation. It should be noted that the times I have done this are few and far between.

Its not very different in practice to storing HoPo at all.

If PoJ was a 20% flat, then the math wouldn't work out in advantage for LA. So I wouldn't be bringing it up :) But its not and a 45% speed buff with over 50% uptime is quite nice.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:01 am

So, after some objective comparisons, I have decided that in my particular case I perform much better with PoJ than LAotL. LAotL may feel much faster, and like I'm more in control of the situation, but I personally got a much better record avoiding mechanics with PoJ. And that's what counts.

On a side note, got a PERFECT run on LFR Will of the Emperor with PoJ, that was the nail in the coffin. Quite proud.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:50 am

You dont have to hold off anything to have high uptime on PoJ with its full benefit, if you really want the 30% you dont use any holy power untill the second you have 5 and have any holy power generator available.
Holding off Judgement (a major holy power generator) isnt a very good idea, sure it will likely not make or break anything, due to when moving you are likely not beeing hit as hard anyway either.

Inconsistent doesnt mean that its uptime is inconsistent, but rather that your movementspeed is, cause at some point you run fast, the other times you run very slow.

I also dont see how PoJ beeing 20% flat would revolutionize PoJ either.

Pure math about whats uptime is highest compared to its movemenspeed increase is completely useless.
For me, I feel most fights can obviously be done without any of the movement talents, but what makes Speed of Light good is its ability to turn the tides if you have to move to prevent a wipe, I guess 45% could do the same, but 70% is flat out better obviously.
Many times in normal cases you dont wanna be outrunning the melee anyway.

On a fight like elegon, running out and resetting with SoL is fast, while its only once every 45sec, while with LAotL its slower each time, but you can do it more ofthen, but you still move at "normal" speed a bit of the way. I dont know how ofthen others reset their debuffs but I never reset more than once per phase atleast.
On WotE, i think we have been over this, but you can do the dodging completely without as well, PoJ makes it pretty brainless to dodge it tho.
In HoF, I feel LAotL does have more uses, theres a bit more running around on them (especially Amber shaper, beeing flinged is where LAotL shines)
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:41 pm

Cragwell wrote:Eh, like I said. Its up almost always and the choice when I need to wait for a speed buff is a one or two second choice. Overall speed return is higher than either of the other two talents once your haste makes it so. Top PoJ returns require a constant store of HoPo which is sort of the same thing as choosing a slight change in rotation from time to time.

Which is what most of us are doing anyway. Bank to 5, only spend when we have another HPG coming up immediately. In practice, I rarely have less than 25% movement speed from PoJ.

In any event, calculating which talent gives the highest average movement speed is sort of missing the point. Highest average movement speed means absolutely nothing - it's not a compelling metric by which to gauge the talents.

The on/off nature of LAotL would irritate the hell out of me, because it would be jarring to go from 45% to 0% movement speed in the middle of a kite, or while trying to get out of fire. I don't want it to be unavailable for the 2 seconds that I need it the most. Hence, give me a flat 15% movement speed any day. At least the 5% speed fluctuations aren't that noticeable (though again, I'd probably turn them off if I could).
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:30 am

Can anyone help me find a discussion of which talents and glyphs to use for which raid bosses? I recently read a very nice post with lots of tips on this - I think it was in maintankadin.com, but my google fu is failing me. It alerted me to using the dot reducing talent for Stone Guards, which is the one tip from it which has stuck with me, but as I wasn't raiding at the time, the others passed me by. Apologies if it is right under my nose.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am

You're probably thinking of Matt Walsh's last WoWInsider article.

Note that I don't agree with all of his advice, though. Most of it is fine for normal modes, but a bunch of it is bad advice for heroic (which, admittedly, he's not claiming to be giving advice for in the first place).
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:44 am

Updated for 5.2. Let me know if you think I've missed anything.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby jere » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:42 pm

Light's Hammer now generates threat from damage (Just tested tonight). Healing threat still has the old 25% modifier so they didn't fix that part, but at least the damage is generating threat correctly now.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:10 am

Excellent, I'll update that.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Fetzie » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:03 pm

Using Unbreakable Spirit will cause Divine Shield to come off cooldown about ten seconds before you need it again at Horridon.

Bubble at the end of P1, then HoP at the end of P2, the bubble will be ready again for the end of P3 leaving only the end of P4 requiring an external BoP (unless the other tank picks up the boss immediately and doesn't die until the debuff has expired naturally).
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Thels » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:24 am

Fetzie wrote:Using Unbreakable Spirit will cause Divine Shield to come off cooldown about ten seconds before you need it again at Horridon.

Bubble at the end of P1, then HoP at the end of P2, the bubble will be ready again for the end of P3 leaving only the end of P4 requiring an external BoP (unless the other tank picks up the boss immediately and doesn't die until the debuff has expired naturally).


Is that easier than simply tank switching after every phase?

Also, wouldn't that favor clemency, as you can go BoP, BoP, Bubble, BoP, BoP?

EDIT: Miscalculated. You still need an external CD on the 4th one.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Sagara » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:37 am

On 10-man it's going to help tons, while on 25, you can probably afford to three-tank it and not being worried about leftover adds wailing on the Horridon tank.

Honestly, I've found the ToT fights very forgiving of three-tanking.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Thels » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:47 am

Yeah, I imagined that if we were a 25 man guild, having a third tank there to switch taunting the boss more often and have some help on the adds would do wonders. Seems to be too much of a DPS loss for 10 man, though.

The fights where a lot of stuff is going on at the same time that needs to be done seem somewhat easier on 25 man, even though you probably get a lot more stuff on the ground to run out of.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Fetzie » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:52 am

We tried three-tanking Horridon, but the third tank felt like he was just standing around most of the time and not contributing much at all, so we went back to two tanks and killed it a couple of attempts later.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Promdates » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:03 am

No point in 3 tanking it. We noticed the little adds on the gates had no real aggro table. No matter how much we tried we couldn't keep them on us, but we could keep all the important ones. I could try to solo tank it, I'd probably use US anyway just because it gives me an average cd on DP of 32-36 seconds. Can always have the two holy paladins HoP me.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:59 am

Which fights in ToT would you want to glyph Holy Wrath and Focused Wrath for? I was armory stalking Theck just now and noticed he had glyphed those.

I'm guessing they are for the Lei Shen fight? The adds are elementals so holy wrath stuns them? But they don't seem to respond to well aggro (at least to my efforts on LFR), so you'd rather all the damage went to Lei Shen?

Or are there other ToT fights when you'd want to use these glyphs? (They are very interesting glyphs to me but situational.)
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby daishan » Wed May 22, 2013 3:23 am

Meg hm adds are elementals, so very nice to have the stun glyph to interrupt them, just be careful as they'll go stun immune after a while then stuns won't even interupt them.
I personally never use focused wrath.

I do glyph final wrath for several fights, especially any fight that becomes more dangerous when the boss is at low health.
Iron Qon hm when all 3 dogs are up with low health final wrath is very nice.
Durumu hm stays sub 20% longer than normal due to life drains.
I'm unsure about the maths but I rank final wrath above alabasters shield on any fight where I'm not getting hit all the time.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed May 22, 2013 4:47 am

econ21 wrote:Which fights in ToT would you want to glyph Holy Wrath and Focused Wrath for? I was armory stalking Theck just now and noticed he had glyphed those.

I'm guessing they are for the Lei Shen fight? The adds are elementals so holy wrath stuns them? But they don't seem to respond to well aggro (at least to my efforts on LFR), so you'd rather all the damage went to Lei Shen?

Or are there other ToT fights when you'd want to use these glyphs? (They are very interesting glyphs to me but situational.)


I can't remember which fight in particular I glyphed those for, but it's definitely a situational thing. Focused Wrath is "free" in that it's a minor glyph, so I use it any time I don't want to cleave to adds (for example, in this case it was probably Twin Consorts - no point in cleaving to the meteors, as they're immune to damage).
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Fetzie » Fri May 24, 2013 4:43 am

Focused Wrath would be useful as the boss-tank on Tortos if you have somebody kiting the bats to avoid cleaving to them.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Thels » Fri May 31, 2013 2:01 am

Focused Wrath seems quite useful for any encounter where you'd like to focus damage on a single target, where damage on additional targets is wasted. Also, if you have Final Wrath, it makes sure that all the damage goes on the target below 20% and all possible damage is gained from the glyph, rather than having parts of it spiral off to different targets that aren't in execute range.

The only downside of Focused Wrath is that you can't use HW to pick up several mobs, but I find it pretty weak for picking up groups of mobs anyhow, as the damage output on a group of mobs is quite lowe. Naturally, if you use the Glyph to stun, you want it to hit all targets as well.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:10 pm

Theck, in due course, please could update this guide for 5.4 and/or maybe do a Sacred Duty blog survival guide for the patch? The thing I am most interested in some guidance on is EF vs SS, as that seems potentially to be the biggest change in how we should play. Most of the other 5.4 changes don't seem to imply significant changes in our behavior. I'll probably switch to the tank meta and cloak, stack stamina after capping haste, hit and experience but otherwise keep on doing what I do. Getting used to relying on EF rather than SS would be a big change for me though and I am rather vague on the whys and hows.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Thels » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:12 am

EDIT: For clarification, the below comments apply to 5.4. Keep SS during 5.3!

As things are now, EF flat out beats SS even without Tier 16 4 piece, except on the pull, as you can't pre-pull EF.

EF also has some synergy with Tier 15 2 piece, so if you switch to EF, you might consider hanging on to them, until you can jump to Tier 16 4 piece.

You're only vulnerable on the pull. If you spec HA or SW, popping them at the pull should mitigate most of that.
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