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Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:28 am
by Tigger
Hi there,

I have a beginner question for handling aggro between two tanks. We're currently running Baleroc 10N and I've a pally tank paired with a bear. I love the bear to death, but we're having a minor issue with switching. FYI I have very little knowledge of how bears work. Our gear levels are similar and we put out about the same DPS in small fights.

In this particular case we decided to try a two tank method on Baleroc (we've already experimented with the 1 tank route). Bear mentioned having problems keeping aggro off of me, as after taunt Baleroc comes right back to me. I replied that I'm not having the same issue and was told it's because the bear is digging for belly button lint for about 15 seconds after I taunt.

I understand I can cool it a little on DPS in combination of other things as a pally. But I've no idea what bears can do other than not DPS. I may be wrong but 15 seconds of doing nothing sounds like a lot of wasted opportunity to me. Does anyone else run with a bear regularly? What do you do to keep playing nice on aggro between you two?

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:57 am
by fuzzygeek
My co-tank is a bear; he takes decimation blades on Bale. Any time you tank switch the previous tank should do everything they can to make their co-tank's job easier -- that includes waiting around for a few GCDs.

If he's taunting and doing his threat rotation with 0 vengeance and dodge trinkets up (which he should be popping) and you're still doing your full rotation without salving yourself, then of course you are going to override his threat. We've gone full decimation blade cycles where I haven't been able to re-engage the boss because he does the entire cycle without getting hit. This is not a bad thing.

15 seconds of doing nothing may be a little less efficient, but wiping the raid and having to start over again is even worse. Watch Omen and use your head. 15 seconds is probably a bit of a stretch -- but 9 seconds of autoattacking or "smaller" attacks definitely isn't. When we tank swap I don't SHoR or AS until I know he's firmly established, but I'll still CS, for example.

Also somewhat OT, but on Bale our bear goes kitty whenever he is not tanking decimation blade as well, just to give himself something to do.

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:10 am
by bldavis
we run with a pally/bear combo as well
and on fights we have to switch tanks, Ami will stop attacking until i get a mangle/maul off and am getting hit, or she is running off to deal with something else

mostly just dont do any major abilities for a few seconds, and make sure he gets hit a time or 2 to get some veng

when going bear-> pally....i say have him go kitty
no threat boost, and if he doesnt have furor, then he will take a second to get energy anyway

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:14 am
by Tigger
Hi fuzzygeek,

Thanks for the reply. What I was intending to say is that I understand what I can do to make the bear's life easier. I have ample use of my Hand of Salv, switching to give myself a heal instead, using a lower threat generation tactic, etc. That subject didn't come up in this case until I said "Ok. I'll tone down for you. What do you do for me?... I pick my nose for 15 seconds."

What I'm interested in is what I can suggest to the bear to do other than sit for 15 seconds in fear of pulling off of me. I imagine since we appear to generate the same threat levels that the bear design would have lower generation alternative, like I do, to use in a situation like boss switching.

So your last comment about going kitty is, in fact, that most reasonable alternative?

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:16 am
by Tigger
Hi bldavis,

Ah! Ok. Then it sounds like kitty is the thing to do. Thank you both for your help! I'll talk it over with the bear.

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:39 am
by fuzzygeek
Oh, ok; I misunderstood the issue. Glad I managed to answer the question anyway :D

I have a fraps of a bale25 fight lying around that I'll upload; you can see the kittybear running about.

Edit: here it is:

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:56 am
by bldavis
another bonus of having your bear go kitty is kitty puts out more dps even in a bear spec when a bear will
if your druid is familiar with kitty (or better yet is bear/kitty dual specs like me) than just have him set up his kitty bars and swap forms when he is not tanking, but make sure he has bearform hotkeyed just in case

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:19 pm
by msmf
I would like to point out that when a bear tank is in cat form, you have to make him join the melee stack because a Shard of Torment can spawn on him (Blizzard has problems with detecting feral druid tank spec or something so if he is in cat it just counts him as a normal melee), and having a Shard spawn on a tank can be problematic.

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:55 am
by celinos
I'm surprised when switching it talked about I don't often see people suggest just clicking off RF when the other tank taunts. Is there a disadvantage to that I don't realize?

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:44 pm
by bldavis
i think the real problem is the bear and cat and feralpvp specs only have like 3 points difference each
and you could get some idiot who makes a combo spec of everything and the game doesnt know wtf he is, so cat form = melee dps, bear form = tank

you can click off RF if you want, but really i always found it easier to just stop attacking for a few seconds (yes i am that lazy)
for fights like rotface....i think (the one with the gas) i would click off RF if i was the first tank, but i always seemed to be the first and would click it off for about 3 seconds before the boss was down

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:03 pm
by Koatanga
I tank with a bear who in general does more TPS than I do by a fair bit. She runs around 5% hit and is near expertise cap, whereas I run 1.15% hit and 13 expertise, which is a decent part of it.

We simply back off when we swap tanks. Vengeance does not suddenly disappear when tanks swap, so the one who was just tanking has a massive threat advantage over the new tank.

This isn't as much a factor later in the fight. Once the total threat increases, the 10% more threat you need to pull aggro becomes harder and harder to reach. But at the beginning, when the total threat is small, the odd vengeance-buffed crit can easily put you 10% over the other tank.

She usually goes kitty, but there are times when she stays bear for various reasons and just picks navel lint. When she taunts off me early in a fight, I polish my armour for a bit. She's pretty dodgy, so can take a few boss swings before she has any vengeance at all.

Just keep an eye on Omen and behave yourself, just like you would want your DPS to behave at the start of a fight.

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:48 pm
by Amirya
bldavis wrote:when going bear-> pally....i say have him go kitty
no threat boost, and if he doesnt have furor, then he will take a second to get energy anyway

Another option that I've had to utilize is to slap him with either HoSalv and/or HoProtection. The latter usually works better for me because in amongst all the crap flying around anyway, it takes him a few seconds to realise what I did, then another second to find the buff and click it off, and by then, no issues at all.

You could also Salv yourself during the switch, or take a couple steps back and do a quick sweep of the area to make sure people aren't Doing Stupid. One thing that bldavis and I have are complementary strengths when it comes to raid awareness. He's much better at pinpointing what the raiders are doing to fuck up; I'm usually quicker on the "incoming bad guys to eat our faces" part. Hopefully, you and your bear have that same sort of thing, and can figure what to do with those few seconds of auto attack.

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:13 pm
by bldavis
and that is why i can no longer tank with anyone else.....
you have spoiled me ami, i dont have to worry about the adds anymore

back in wrath, i worried about adds, wtf my raid was doing, making sure i didnt pull threat too soon, and had to tell my co-tank when to move the boss (i wish i was kidding)

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:55 pm
by Chanserv
I use to have a macro to turn RF on and Taunt, and one to turn RF off... but some how they got deleted. So now I just wait around and watch the threat % number.

Re: Pally and Bear switching

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:48 pm
by Fetzie
Code: Select all
/cancelaura Vengeance
/cancelaura Righteous Fury
/cast [@player]Hand of Salvation

Is what I use when I want to be absolutely sure that I will not pull aggro back after the other tank taunts off me. Cancels RF, cancels Vengeance, casts HoSalv on me.