Threat in raids

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Threat in raids

Postby Fignewton » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:36 am

Hello all I'm not sure this is where I should be posting this but here goes...
I did a search for other people posting threat issues and they were mostly in heroics not in raids which is a whole different kettle of fish as far as I'm concerned.
My guild is doing 25m FL and we are 6/7 Normal atm, I took a break from the game for a little while and since returning I'm finding that I seem to be having some threat issues I never had before. My Ilvl in my tanking gear is 367, and I am a mastery heavy tank.
I am not block capped atm and sitting around 85% avoidance, 171k UB hp.

So my threat issues, on boss fights on occasion I have the high dps casters peaking up on me occasionally pulling IE spriest/mage's that are around 25k dps. On AoE trash I'm having issues holding from the other tank (we alternate between a prot warrior and a bear) and for adds during boss fights I'm either golden or someone will rip the add off of me almost instantly :(

The warrior/bear tanks I run with don't often have this issue so I'm feeling as if it's something on my end or they're getting all the MDs or something which doesn't make a lot of sense.

I use the typical rotation of AS>J>DP>SotR>CS... for single target.
Am I missing something here or is it just an issue of DPS not watching their threat you think?
Also after a pull if you miss a few times consecutively (which is so irritating) is there anything you can do to repair that other than call out to your raiders that you missed and threat is low?

And a gear question not a threat question, I have Scales of Life but I've read so much debating on it I'm not 100% sure if I want to use it, it seems very situational. I normally run with Vial of Stolen Memories and Symbiotic Worm. What are you guys' thoughts on that?

Thanks for any help you can offer :)
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby Ocin » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:05 pm

I wear a hit and expertise cap set for trash, but on bosses threat can be dicey for the first 10 secs if you're not careful.
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:16 pm

Why would it not make sense that your co-tanks are getting the tricks/MDs? I know my rogues and hunters have macros set up, and if you were out of rotation for a bit, they may not have bothered to update their macros accordingly.

If anyone is pulling threat early, I would examine what your hunters and rogues are doing with regards to MD/tricks; if people are being dumb in the first ten seconds of the pull then there really isn't anything you can do.

Clever arcane mages will burst heavily to start a fight; I used to just taunt the boss as his mirror images were rolling off for an early threat lead (said mage has since retired and new mage doesn't do the same thing).
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby BennyHill » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:34 pm

Fignewton wrote:I use the typical rotation of AS>J>DP>SotR>CS... for single target.


You should be using SotR>CS>AS>J>Cons>HW. Make sure you're spamming your buttons too. Theck's MATLAB Thread has more tips for maxing your threat.
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby Durability » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:47 am

Single-target: your rotation's really, really off - read the stickies at the top of this forum, you'll gain quite a bit just by that.

AOE: Losing to other tanks? So what? You should never in a million years lose to a dps in an AOE situation anyhow, tank AOE is extremely strong.

Trinkets: Scales sucks, but it's still a lot better than Vial IMO if only for the extra base stam on it. Dump them in favor of the Revered Avengers trinkets, a Mirror of Broken Images, or Beth's trinket asap.
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:53 am

BennyHill wrote:
Fignewton wrote:I use the typical rotation of AS>J>DP>SotR>CS... for single target.


You should be using SotR>CS>AS>J>Cons>HW. Make sure you're spamming your buttons too. Theck's MATLAB Thread has more tips for maxing your threat.

What Fignewton posted looks more like a pull sequence than a rotation. Though really it should be something like DP-Inq-(optional Exo)-AS-J, then leading into the real rotation you posted.
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby Calleana » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:29 am

I use an addon called BigBrother to monitor who is receiving Tricks or MD, this might help you see if this ties in with situations you are losing threat.

I use a modified set on fights with a lot of adds to control (Lord Rhyolith/ Beth'tilac) as pulling snap threat in these can be tricky if your first ability misses. I also use this on trash farming.

Two stamina trinkets seems a bit of an odd choice so that would probably be the first thing to modify.
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby Torias » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:45 am

Seeing your armory might be useful, judging by the fact you're an ilvl 367 "mastery heavy tank" with only 85% total avoidance and 171k UB I am suspicious there might be something else going wrong, here. My average ilvl is around the same place as yours except I have 101% avoidance+block and 165k UB. I'd really want to see your spec, glyphs, gemming, specific gear choices, etc.

Rotation wise I hope that's just a pull sequence you posted like KysenMurrin suggested! Fuzzygeek's point about arcane mages is also great if you can coordinate it. For the AoE rotation I can't imagine what could be happening. Them getting all of the MDs seems most plausible. What kind of rotation are you using? For big AoE packs try and maintain Inquisition and abuse HotR and Consecration. Are you sure the bear/warrior aren't using their AoE fixate? I know it's not a full taunt but popping it in a big pack can stack their vengeance up really, really fast which can then make it hard to get aggro back. Honestly I wouldn't be afraid to use RD on them to grab 3 and just tank those, packs bigger than 6 are pretty rare. And, in fact, if they're not dying I don't see the problem, I routinely end up tanking everything in big pulls with my guild.
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby Fignewton » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:05 pm

First off yes that was my pull rotation not rotation during fight, my bad on wording it.

The mage I've had the most problems with is arcane and it was after his mirror images fell off generally a taunt back works but I've not tried to taunt BEFORE his mirrors fall I'll try it. He's also being better about watching his threat meter and popping invis.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/m ... amu/simple is my armory, maybe I messed up my calculations on my avoidance or maybe i'm doing something wrong, and if so that's why I'm posting here. :):)

For AOE pulls I've not been using inq all that much, but now that I think of it it was pretty stupid of me not to -.- So I'll be using it now, and for the tanks pulling from AOE pulls I don't mind since well it's a tank just more irritating that im not doing much of anything and on the rare times they go down my threat is kinda crap compared to DPS at that point because I've not gotten jack for veng.

I think that pretty well covers what you all commented on. Thanks for everything so far.
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:33 pm

I see nothing overtly wrong with your gear, although I would argue "mastery heavy tanks" usually don't have two stamina trinkets equipped :D

If I were in your shoes I would match the chest socket bonuses and not wear double stam trinkets, but none of that is related to the threat issues.

Taunting off the mage before his MI elapses and double-checking what your hunters and rogues are doing should solve your problems; it wasn't unreasonable for our arcane mage to start out a fight bursting 60k dps or something retarded.
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby Fignewton » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:40 pm

We run 2 arcane mages atm and one of them does the same in the beginning but is terrified of death so ALWAYS invis' after the other not so much.
I was thinking of changing up my chest gems already but didn't know if it would be worth losing the mastery since the chest is two blue sockets and i could live without more mastery/stam gems. Trying to find a post I found here the other day that had a basic 'this is what your bonus should be to match sockets' but I seemed to have lost it.
Also I forgot to mention my avoidance I posted above is unbuffed outside of a raid, so that may also be why it seems low to some of you, I'll pull numbers from the next raid I'm in and see how close I am to block cap.

I'll probably start dragging my lazy butt to TB to get the mirror and just hope that Beth will drop her trink, the ones I have are just what I've gotten. Any other good mastery trinks I'm ignoring?
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby Yelena » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:14 pm

The TB trinket also adds the availability of a significant cooldown for magic burst, which has application in several Firelands encounters. Obviously the Mastery is the primary reason to have it, but the use effect is pretty potent in its own regard.

Also, your pure avoidance is fine; higher than that of several people here, actually. The block chance is what we're seeing on the low side, in terms of combat table coverage. Mastery food/elixir, Kings or Mark, and HoW/SoE/Battle Shout will likely add up to less than 5% CTC, which still leaves a decent amount of the table unaccounted for (susceptibility to full hits). Shifting to a Mastery trinket will help with that some, the rest is pretty much going to come from gear selection, upgrading to the T12 legs (which have a decent amount of Mastery on them) will help there, as T11 are double-avoidance itemized.
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Re: Threat in raids

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:05 am

Moving this thread to Basic Training, as it doesn't have a strong calculation/theorycraft basis.
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