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Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:15 pm
by Cascadian
With the changes to 4.1 many people are switching 2 points from Eternal Glory to Seals of the Pure.
That makes sense.

What about Guarded by the Light?
With the changes to WoG and fewer opportunities for the overheal absorb shield, does it make sense to keep 2/2 in GbtL?
We only need 1/2 in GbtL to get Holy Shield refreshed with WoG.

I am currently at 1/2 in Reckoning.
Shifting 1 point from GbtL into Reckoning is perhaps useful to get more Windwalking procs.

Any opinions on where that extra point from GbtL might be more useful?
Or does it still make sense to keep 2/2 in GbtL?

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:22 pm
by Amirya
Personally, I kept the 2/2 GbtL because of the increase to heal that it adds to WoG (by an additional 10%). Pretty sure Reckoning is still a threat stat, and my threat is fine. :D

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:32 am
by Gab
Amirya wrote:Personally, I kept the 2/2 GbtL because of the increase to heal that it adds to WoG (by an additional 10%). Pretty sure Reckoning is still a threat stat, and my threat is fine. :D


The second point in GbtL only increases the WoG heal by 5%. AFAIK Reckoning isn't just a threat talent, it also increases Windwalk uptime and SoI heals. Personaly I plan on going 1/2 GbtL and 2/2 Reckoning

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:39 am
by theckhd
The overheal bubble is a feature of the second point as well.

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:05 am
by boneyjellyfish
I'm at a point now where I'll either spec 0/2 or 2/2 for it. I don't see 1/2 as having any use whatsoever anymore since the odds of holy shield dropping off now seem to be pretty insignificant. Putting 2/2 into it at least makes it a somewhat good cooldown at high vengeance, but that would either require 1/2 in reckoning or 2/3 RoL (or taking points out of PoJ entirely).

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:12 pm
by Lathdari
It seems to me we should be using WoG whenever we have 3 HoPo and it's off CD (probably every 3 rotations). Therefore the 'bubble' functionality of 2/2 GbtL is still useful.

That does mean that some other point has to go. Like OP says, 2/2 in Reckoning is good for the Windwalk procs. In 4.0.6 I had 2/2 in Reckoning, 2/2 in GbtL and 1/2 in Grand Crusader, but with the change to Grand Crusader in 4.1, it seems it ought to be 2/2. The extra WoG crits from Rule of Law are going to be less significant now, so it adds relatively little survivability. On the other hand, Sacred Duty is definitely a pure threat talent, so the logical consequence of speccing purely for survivability is to go 1/2 in Sacred Duty. On the other hand, critting with Shield of the Righteous on the pull gives me a nice solid threat lead to start off with, even if it is only a 50% chance. What do people think?

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:43 pm
by Xayton
Lathdari wrote:It seems to me we should be using WoG whenever we have 3 HoPo and it's off CD (probably every 3 rotations). Therefore the 'bubble' functionality of 2/2 GbtL is still useful.

That does mean that some other point has to go. Like OP says, 2/2 in Reckoning is good for the Windwalk procs. In 4.0.6 I had 2/2 in Reckoning, 2/2 in GbtL and 1/2 in Grand Crusader, but with the change to Grand Crusader in 4.1, it seems it ought to be 2/2. The extra WoG crits from Rule of Law are going to be less significant now, so it adds relatively little survivability. On the other hand, Sacred Duty is definitely a pure threat talent, so the logical consequence of speccing purely for survivability is to go 1/2 in Sacred Duty. On the other hand, critting with Shield of the Righteous on the pull gives me a nice solid threat lead to start off with, even if it is only a 50% chance. What do people think?


I just pull my point out of PoJ, I still have 1 point it in so it isn't that bad.

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 6:17 pm
by theckhd
Lathdari wrote:What do people think?

I think you're vastly over-estimating the effect of one point of Reckoning on Windwalk uptime. If I had to guess, that second point is probably only worth 1-2% overall uptime.

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 7:04 pm
by Lathdari
With both points in Reckoning, I'm getting a 28% up-time for it. Roughly that's going to be equivalent to an extra 28% swings, or 14% per point. Isn't that going to be nearly a 14% increase in Windwalk procs, or about 4% extra up-time?

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:37 pm
by theckhd
Not even close. 28% uptime on Reckoning means 28% more auto-attacks. It has no effect on GCD-based abilities, which account for a significant amount of Windwalk's procs. Also, you're making the naive assumption that every extra swing from reckoning gives you the same benefit as any other auto-attack, which is incorrect. The nature of Reckoning makes those auto-attacks less effective due to bunching effects.

Just to check with the matlab model:
2/2 - 35.92% Windwalk uptime.
1/2 - 34.53%
0/2 - 32.91%

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:40 am
by tlitp
theckhd wrote:Also, you're making the naive assumption that every extra swing from reckoning gives you the same benefit as any other auto-attack, which is incorrect. The nature of Reckoning makes those auto-attacks less effective due to bunching effects.

Good catch, the code didn't handle the munching overhead. Fixed in r303.

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:18 am
by theckhd
Didn't make a huge difference, as expected:

2/2: 35.82% uptime, 0.8675% time-averaged dodge.
1/2: 34.47% uptime, 0.8347% time-averaged dodge.
0/2: 32.91% uptime, 0.7970% time-averaged dodge.

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 3:19 pm
by Lathdari
Yes, you're right. I was thinking that Windwalk only procced off auto-attacks, but I see you've dealt with that elsewhere, and it actually procs off just about everything, so the auto-attack only contributes 36% of Windwalk procs or so. So using my crude analysis, 28% reckoning uptime would give 10% extra windwalk uptime, which agrees with your results. (Although in fact 28% reckoning uptime is an underestimate - I've just pulled that number from World of Logs, but that includes periods when the boss isn't hitting me, when there will be no reckoning procs, but Windwalk is irrelevent.)

I was aware that there would be a bunching effect, but I assumed it would be small, which seems to be right from your numbers.

Without wanting to be too fannish, I'm slightly in awe of the fact that I'm actually exchanging posts with you. I've been playing for about 8 months now, and I've found your analyses enormously helpful, so thanks for that. And thanks for running those numbers through the sim.

Of course, reckoning does also give extra SoI procs as well, but I've recently re-reforged entirely out of threat stats (after I read your forceful arguments elsewhere), and I'm finding that although I'm holding aggro fine, I'm not having as much opportunity to use SoI, which renders that irrelevent.

In the end I went for 2/3 in Rule of Law, mostly because the other talents just feel like things a tankadin ought to have. I'll see how it goes.

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:01 pm
by boneyjellyfish
Lathdari wrote:In the end I went for 2/3 in Rule of Law, mostly because the other talents just feel like things a tankadin ought to have. I'll see how it goes.


I've been rolling with 2/3 RoL as well. I'm operating under the assumption that 2/2 Reckoning provides greater survivability (through windwalk uptime) and healing (through SoI) than the 5% crit that the point in RoL provides. I don't have any math to back this up, though.

Re: Patch 4.1 Guarded by the Light changes

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:13 pm
by Arincia
Assuming full raid buffs 3/3 RoL would have you around 25% crit rate on WoG while 2/3 should be 20%. Should be easy to figure out how much average heal your losing. As far as survival you shouldn't be counting on WOG crits since its rng you couldn't control to begin with. The 20 second CD on WoG you would have a very long fight (around 10 minutes i would geuss) to see any noticeable difference on that 5% crit healing on wog.