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Rebuke and expertise

Postby Szoltomi » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:30 am

Since we get Rebuke baseline in the next patch, a prot pally can be now on interrupt duty.
I know we need to be hit capped to make sure it doesn't miss, however, expertise hard cap is quite hard to reach, on the other hand, might not be needed.
I know players can't dodge/parry/block while casting, but it might not be the case for NPC or bosses, anyone knows which case it is?

Thank you!
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby Håvard » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:30 am

After googling key search terms, I came across this old EJ thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11388-kick ... block_mob/

They didn't seem to come to a consensus. One theory to explain the inconsistent reports is that people who reported dodges during mob casts were actually late in their interrupts (latency/lag).

Seems plausible to me, but that said, it'd be really nice to see something more concrete to back that up.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby Szoltomi » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:57 am

I knew I forgot to search it somehow, it's sad it's not a definitive answer.

In this case however, the best would be to test it.

It needs a boss, which casts as often as possible, deals little damage with it's casts, and preferably don't have a berserk timer. Any level boss does, since they can always parry or dodge, ignoring the attacker's level.
Shade of aran seems to be a a good example on a first thought, or someone has a better idea?
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:11 pm

I'm fairly certain that all melee interrupts (Shield Bash, Pummel, Kick, Rebuke, etc.) cannot be dodged or parried <edit> while casting (for the same reasoning given in the EJ quote below)</edit>. I haven't seen a recent test of this, but I think that if they were able to be dodged or parried, warrior tanks would know about it.

EJ Cataclysm Protection Warrior Thread:
Hit provides similar benefits to Expertise once you defeat a target's dodge chance, and is of particular importance when using interrupts (since targets cannot parry or dodge while casting).


Tankspot "Hitcapping for Nerfarian" thread:
I'm not sure whether this thread is worth much, since it's clear that half the people in that thread don't know what they're talking about.
Last edited by theckhd on Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby Szoltomi » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:30 pm

My first thing to do was when the PTR was available to start kicking the target dummy with Rebuke (yes, it's a kick). It can be dodged, parried, and can miss. No idea why I haven't tried it as retribution on live, but it doesn't really matter.

The correct question is, can they be dodged and parried while the target is casting?

Also, do you think Shade would be a good lab rat for testing this? It's been ages since I fought against him, and I did it with my hunter.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:56 pm

Szoltomi wrote:The correct question is, can they be dodged and parried while the target is casting?

Also, do you think Shade would be a good lab rat for testing this? It's been ages since I fought against him, and I did it with my hunter.


Oops, I should have been clearer. I meant "while the target is casting." Since they're all melee attacks, presumably they can be dodged or parried if the target is not casting (though exceptions to this rule exist in game).

I think Shade would be fine, especially if you went in a set with low/no expertise. He's a boss-level mob, so he should still have the base 6.5% chance to dodge and ~14% chance to parry you. If you don't see a single dodge or parry in ~100 Rebukes, it's pretty safe to say that the EJ thread is correct.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby Szoltomi » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:06 pm

I'm testing him this very moment, the first run yielded about 40 interrupts, two of them missed, none of them got parried or dodged. However, he did parry or dodge a few of my autoattacks while not casting (right after an interrupt)

I'll make one more run just to be sure, though the most likely case is that you don't need expertise cap to interrupt properly. Very good news.

Edit:
Run two, 42 interrupts, two miss again, zero parry, dodge or block.

It seems pretty sure now, an interrupt against an NPC cannot be dodged or parried.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby Ertai » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:49 pm

Hello,

Just digged up this topic. On Maloriak today, much to my amazement, i actually got a parry on a Rebuke interestingly enough. Sadly no one was logging it but i do have this little pic: Image

Seeing as i was on Arcane Storm interrupt duty, perhaps this was due to the change in him casting Arcane Storm (you now see a small bar filling before he actually starts channeling) but i'd like to be sure of this. Did anyone else notice "odd" behavior? I was sitting at 17 expertise, that's with SoV glyphed.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby Arcand » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:36 am

Ertai/Theck - would it be helpful if I trimmed off this new development and moved
it over to Advanced for rigorous analysis?
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:44 am

I'm not sure it's a new development - he could have just interrupted late enough (i.e. during the latency period) that it never registered, just like the previous discussion in this thread. Or alternatively, someone else might've interrupted the cast before he did, which would allow his Rebuke to be parried/dodged.

The only odd part about it is that we all assumed that they were changing interrupts to never miss/dodge/parry. But they didn't say that precisely, they said that they wouldn't miss. So it's entirely possible that interrupts are now coded without a "miss" section on their attack table.

Another solo Shade of Aran test would probably be enough to confirm this, as any parried Rebuke would coincide with a successful cast.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby Staatt » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:45 pm

Am I reading this thread correctly to say that you no longer need to hit-cap in order to not miss an interrupt (leaving aside the issue of dodge / parry)?
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:56 pm

Staatt wrote:Am I reading this thread correctly to say that you no longer need to hit-cap in order to not miss an interrupt (leaving aside the issue of dodge / parry)?


Yes, from the patch notes:
All non-damaging interrupts off the global cooldown will now always hit the target. This includes Pummel, Kick, Mind Freeze, Rebuke, Skull Bash, Counterspell, Wind Shear, Solar Beam, Silencing Shot, and related player pet abilities.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby Ertai » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:03 am

theckhd wrote:I'm not sure it's a new development - he could have just interrupted late enough (i.e. during the latency period) that it never registered, just like the previous discussion in this thread. Or alternatively, someone else might've interrupted the cast before he did, which would allow his Rebuke to be parried/dodged.



I'm close to thinking that this is pretty much the case. We spent quite some time on Nefarian last night where i interrupted the mobs on the pillars pretty much everytime and i had 0 problems with those. Perhaps those mobs can't dodge/parry anyway, but i figured it was worth a mention.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:15 am

I'm pretty sure those mobs can dodge/parry, but I'd have to check logs to be sure. Generally speaking, nothing can dodge/parry while it's actually casting, unless the mechanics have changed. And remember that since those mobs are only level 85, you only need 20 expertise (5%) to push dodge/parry off of the attack table.
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Re: Rebuke and expertise

Postby Luuni » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:48 am

I noticed this when we did Cho'Gall and the Darkened Creation dodged my Rebuke while it was channeling the Debilitating Beam.

Code: Select all
[21:25:33.187] Luuni casts Rebuke on  Darkened Creation
[21:25:33.187] Luuni Rebuke Darkened Creation Dodge


Today I tested on Shade of Aran and managed to get a parry.

Code: Select all
[13:04:54.531] Luuni casts Rebuke on Shade of Aran
[13:04:54.531] Luuni Rebuke Shade of Aran Parry


Cho'gall logs can be found here: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/li6g ... 2Rebuke%22
Shade of Aran here: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7m7f ... 2Rebuke%22
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