Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
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Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
So for the past few weeks we've been working less on downing bosses and more on just farming encounters. Because of this I've started to pay a little more attention to WoG and thusly Eternal Glory. This past week I became absolutely convinced that I was not getting more than 1 EG proc per WoG. I figured at a 30% chance I should be seeing multiple (2+) proc's per fight. At first I chalked it up to just not paying close enough attention to WoG and my EG procs. However tonight I finally looked into it and EG has a 15 second ICD (Source: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=88676).
So now I'm starting to think that EG might not really be worth it. At most it is an extra WoG once every other 3 HoPo. Because EG only has a 30% chance to proc that means that I'm only getting 50%*30% = 15% more WoGs if it proc's every 2nd WoG. I'm starting to wonder if putting those two points into Divinity (4% more healing) might actually be more beneficial. I'm assuming that Divinity double dips, which means my WoG would be healing me for 8% more + 4% more healing from the raid.
Am I over thinking this or does this make sense to anyone else?
So now I'm starting to think that EG might not really be worth it. At most it is an extra WoG once every other 3 HoPo. Because EG only has a 30% chance to proc that means that I'm only getting 50%*30% = 15% more WoGs if it proc's every 2nd WoG. I'm starting to wonder if putting those two points into Divinity (4% more healing) might actually be more beneficial. I'm assuming that Divinity double dips, which means my WoG would be healing me for 8% more + 4% more healing from the raid.
Am I over thinking this or does this make sense to anyone else?
Last edited by Malarkey on Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- Malarkey
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:03 pm
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Hm... the 15-second ICD must have been added in Cataclysm, because I distinctly remember getting 3+ procs in a row while soloing Magtheridon at 80.
Just ran a quick parse on a level 60 dummy, and it definitely looks like the 15-second ICD is active:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-k ... l+Glory%22
That said, most of us aren't choosing between Divinity and Eternal Glory, we're taking them both.
Just ran a quick parse on a level 60 dummy, and it definitely looks like the 15-second ICD is active:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-k ... l+Glory%22
That said, most of us aren't choosing between Divinity and Eternal Glory, we're taking them both.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd - Moderator
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Yeah, I definitely remember having 2, 3 and even a 4 proc of EG back in WotLK and I thought I remembered it even doing it at the start of Cata but I'm not entirely sure. I wasn't really concerned about it proc'ing until the past few weeks when we began doing raids.
I've been running with just 1/3 in Divinity and 2/2 SotP obviously, though looking back on it threat really hasn't been an issue so I suppose I should have been going 3/3 Divinity anyway. I guess I'll just pick up Divinity and keep EG, but the nerfed EG is just seeming pretty lackluster to me at this point. I'm starting to debate if it is really worth it. I suppose when the highest DPS isn't even close to touching me in threat SotP isn't really worth anything though.
I've been running with just 1/3 in Divinity and 2/2 SotP obviously, though looking back on it threat really hasn't been an issue so I suppose I should have been going 3/3 Divinity anyway. I guess I'll just pick up Divinity and keep EG, but the nerfed EG is just seeming pretty lackluster to me at this point. I'm starting to debate if it is really worth it. I suppose when the highest DPS isn't even close to touching me in threat SotP isn't really worth anything though.
- Malarkey
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:03 pm
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
I just worked out the math for it, and EG is worth about 580 HPS. It's interesting to note that if you're sinking Holy Power with WoG, Eternal Glory and Divinity are both better threat talents than Seals of the Pure by a factor of 2 or more.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd - Moderator
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Well that settles it pretty definitively then. Doesn't make me feel bad at all for going and dropping Seals of the Pure last night after posting this. I actually feel a little silly for not doing it sooner. Still too bad about the ICD on EG though.
Thanks again Theck.
Thanks again Theck.
- Malarkey
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:03 pm
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Malarkey wrote:This past week I became absolutely convinced that I was not getting more than 1 EG proc per WoG.
I am not sure you are right about this. I got 2 EG procs for one WoG last night. I only made a note of it because I had read your post before, but my impression is that it's a regular occurrence for me.
- econ21
- Posts: 1217
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:53 am
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Are you sure about that? I've been watching pretty closely while I raid since this was brought to my attention, and didn't see any double-procs (nor back-to-back procs within 9 seconds, as far as I can remember) in all of last night's Nefarian attempts.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd - Moderator
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
theckhd wrote:Are you sure about that? I've been watching pretty closely while I raid since this was brought to my attention, and didn't see any double-procs (nor back-to-back procs within 9 seconds, as far as I can remember) in all of last night's Nefarian attempts.
I haven't had a back-to-back proc at all this week, and I've been looking for them
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sculder - Posts: 113
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- Location: Massachusetts
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Further testing. I took last night's WoL report and filtered all Eternal Glory procs for the four relevant paladins. I then parsed them for timestamps and calculated the difference. Here's the log data, raw time differences (filtered for <60 seconds only), along with a histogram of the results:

There were absolutely no procs with a time separation less than 15 seconds out of the events here (between 103 and 206 depending on bookending). Now, there are some caveats here - there's no guarantee that the paladins recast WoG within 15 seconds of an EG proc, though both tanks probably did. It's probably a reasonably safe guess that at least 50% of the WoGs that procced EG were followed by another WoG within 15 seconds, however. So let's take a conservative estimate of 50 events that fit our criterion.
There would be a ~9% overall chance of a double proc if EG had no ICD. But we're looking at a conditional probability here, because we're post-selecting our data by looking at only the delay after a successful EG proc. So in fact, we'd expect a 30% chance of back-to-back EGs on successive WoGs.
With 50 events, we'd expect around 15 of those events to be back-to-back procs that occur within 15 seconds of one another. The chance that we see 0 such events out of 50 trials is binopdf(0,50,0.3)=1.8E-8. I think it's safe to say that EG has a 15-second ICD.
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15.2210
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28.5310
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30.1370
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32.0790
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36.7810
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40.1350
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59.4850

There were absolutely no procs with a time separation less than 15 seconds out of the events here (between 103 and 206 depending on bookending). Now, there are some caveats here - there's no guarantee that the paladins recast WoG within 15 seconds of an EG proc, though both tanks probably did. It's probably a reasonably safe guess that at least 50% of the WoGs that procced EG were followed by another WoG within 15 seconds, however. So let's take a conservative estimate of 50 events that fit our criterion.
There would be a ~9% overall chance of a double proc if EG had no ICD. But we're looking at a conditional probability here, because we're post-selecting our data by looking at only the delay after a successful EG proc. So in fact, we'd expect a 30% chance of back-to-back EGs on successive WoGs.
With 50 events, we'd expect around 15 of those events to be back-to-back procs that occur within 15 seconds of one another. The chance that we see 0 such events out of 50 trials is binopdf(0,50,0.3)=1.8E-8. I think it's safe to say that EG has a 15-second ICD.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd - Moderator
- Posts: 6212
- Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
- Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Theck: I think you more than have a handle on the situation, but if for some reason you need some additional WoL parses let me know.
- Malarkey
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:03 pm
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Yes, case closed. My bad, sorry. 

- econ21
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Malarkey wrote:Theck: I think you more than have a handle on the situation, but if for some reason you need some additional WoL parses let me know.
I checked my last 5 parses and couldn't find anything below 15sec in between EG procs for any of the 4 paladins in raid. With over a hundred events included we should expect ~30 double procs, but we saw 0. Quite definitive in my opinion.
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sculder - Posts: 113
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Makes me sad.
But I could have swore I've seen a double proc or two when I've been running heroics or doing Cho'gall. I'll have to take note this raid week and post a parse if it does happen. Then again, the above evidence is pretty conclusive. So I was probably just dreaming.
But I could have swore I've seen a double proc or two when I've been running heroics or doing Cho'gall. I'll have to take note this raid week and post a parse if it does happen. Then again, the above evidence is pretty conclusive. So I was probably just dreaming.
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Phonic - Posts: 81
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
I gotta say, just knowing it's a 15 second ICD is very helpful. I thought it was more random than that. Thanks for the thread and posts. Now when I solo stuff I don't even bother to WoG unless I know at least 15 seconds have elapsed. It's helped a lot with getting controlled WoG procs.
- inthedrops
- Maintankadonor
- Posts: 639
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
i swear that i've cast 3 3-point WoG's in a row in under 15 seconds... there was just a divine plea in there too :p
- Arizair
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:43 am
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Kind of reviving a old topic, now not only there is that 15 sec ICD, we can get extra holy power from avengers shield. I was considering removing my eternal glory talents (not sure to what else yet) because im finding that getting that holy power is quite fast (2gcds).
did i miss something?
did i miss something?
- aresius
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:48 am
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Not really, the talent has become quite worthless for prot (and ret) right now.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.
halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Worldie - Global Mod
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Worldie wrote:Not really, the talent has become quite worthless for prot (and ret) right now.
- inthedrops
- Maintankadonor
- Posts: 639
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Then again, what can you choose between?
12% seal dmg?
On a pretty regular fight seal damage stands for between 200-400k dmg, in total.
Increasing that (say 400k) with 12% gives us about 50k more dmg done over the course of a whole fight.
If your specced into Eternal glory, all it takes it 2 proccs for the whole fight, where you can use Shield instead and your well above the 50k dmg seal of the pure would have caused.
It also gives more freedom during aoe fights, if you wanna heal yourself, you might not screw inq up completely.
12% seal dmg?
On a pretty regular fight seal damage stands for between 200-400k dmg, in total.
Increasing that (say 400k) with 12% gives us about 50k more dmg done over the course of a whole fight.
If your specced into Eternal glory, all it takes it 2 proccs for the whole fight, where you can use Shield instead and your well above the 50k dmg seal of the pure would have caused.
It also gives more freedom during aoe fights, if you wanna heal yourself, you might not screw inq up completely.
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Treck - Posts: 1431
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
I still adhere to the philosophy that I'd rather have more threat during the periods that I want threat, not more damage over the course of a fight. I'm generally running SoT when I need threat.
Also, those numbers look fishy. The seal damage estimate looks right (~400k-500k total Censure+SoT), but simulations suggest that SotP is more effective for long-term DPS over the course of a fight (see the talent sim, SotP is ~120 DPS, EG is ~80). Keep in mind that EG costs you GCDs, which count against your DPS contribution. Getting 2 or 3 more SotRs off doesn't mean you've gained 40-60k damage, because those GCDs would have been filled by CS/AS/J, all of which do respectable damage. The real gain from EG is the difference between SotR and the fillers, which is probably closer to 5-8k per proc.
Also, those numbers look fishy. The seal damage estimate looks right (~400k-500k total Censure+SoT), but simulations suggest that SotP is more effective for long-term DPS over the course of a fight (see the talent sim, SotP is ~120 DPS, EG is ~80). Keep in mind that EG costs you GCDs, which count against your DPS contribution. Getting 2 or 3 more SotRs off doesn't mean you've gained 40-60k damage, because those GCDs would have been filled by CS/AS/J, all of which do respectable damage. The real gain from EG is the difference between SotR and the fillers, which is probably closer to 5-8k per proc.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd - Moderator
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
I believe that the ICD was added sometime in 4.0.6 or 4.1 I can remember prior to changing mains that I got a chain of 4 EG in a row while tanking Magmaw. I will see if I can find the parse.
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Shoju - Posts: 5075
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Also keep in mind we might not cast WoG on the cd since we're saving it for emergencies now ( specially with specing out of the absorb ) . Sotp is just so much more reliable and constant damage.
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Awyndel - Posts: 595
- Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
- Location: The Netherlands
Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
Eternal glory internal CD was added VERY early in cata, the first few weeks im pretty sure of.
I still dont see much point in swapping out of it, as WoG is most likely going to be used a lot more during progress than it is now, and Seal dmg is just so small that Seal of the pure is going to make no real differance.
Eternal glory will obviously not stand for much dps eather, but its a lot more convinient HP after youve just healed yourself.
Personally i feel thats works better, than increasing one of your smallest dmg components with so little.
I still dont see much point in swapping out of it, as WoG is most likely going to be used a lot more during progress than it is now, and Seal dmg is just so small that Seal of the pure is going to make no real differance.
Eternal glory will obviously not stand for much dps eather, but its a lot more convinient HP after youve just healed yourself.
Personally i feel thats works better, than increasing one of your smallest dmg components with so little.
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Treck - Posts: 1431
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
I don't really see the logic in that Treck. EG is strictly worse for DPS than SotP, provided you're using Truth. And as you pointed out in the AT&C thread earlier today, there are rarely reasons not to use Truth. So for the vast majority of the time, SotP will be the better choice.
What "convenience" does it afford? Saving 3 Holy Power is irrelevant for survivability due to WoG's cooldown, so the only thing EG gives you is some occasional snap threat on a boss or add with SotR. But I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where that's likely to be an issue.
The fact that EG procs off of WoG has very little relevance any more. You're choosing between two mediocre DPS talents, that's all.
What "convenience" does it afford? Saving 3 Holy Power is irrelevant for survivability due to WoG's cooldown, so the only thing EG gives you is some occasional snap threat on a boss or add with SotR. But I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where that's likely to be an issue.
The fact that EG procs off of WoG has very little relevance any more. You're choosing between two mediocre DPS talents, that's all.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd - Moderator
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Re: Is Eternal Glory still worth it?
SoT is not a small damage component.
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Awyndel - Posts: 595
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