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stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:10 am
by Fath
i did a few heroics and had really no issues when the group was good
but the other night i had this healer telling me that i shouldnt be in heroics
with only 115k life ..

my stats currently are 10.5% dodge 11.6% parry and 42% block

here is my armory
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/zuljin/joxxer/simple

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:00 pm
by Aerron
Is that 115 buffed or unbuffed?

I've just started heroics myself, so they're a challenge atm, but no one in my guild has complained yet about my tanking or squishiness. My stats are about the same as yours with maybe a tiny bit more block. My buffed health is usually in the 124k range.

I'd chalk it up to a healer who's lucked into tanks on the outer curve of the Heroic swing. For those of us entering the other side, you sound fine to me.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:03 pm
by Fath
im actually now at 117k unbuffed .. not my guild complaining just this one healer in a random ..
even though we cleared the dungeon fine .. he was all over my case saying he cant even heal someone
with 115k health

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:09 pm
by fuzzygeek
Your response to him should have been, "If you were a good healer you could." Or, "Wow, the last fifteen healers I did heroics with had no problems. Why are you?"

If your guild isn't having problems with you and you're clearing the content you're attempting, then you're fine for what you're doing.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:17 pm
by Nikachelle
I started heroics with 101k health and my healer had 103k health. (Embarrassing, but true.) It hurts harder, sure, but it's not "unhealable".

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:48 pm
by Powdur
I think when I first hit 85 I was at about 119k hp unbuffed. I rarely ran dungeons before 85 and most of my gear was from quest rewards. I was at a 322 or so ilvl when I dinged, so I couldn't quite get into heroics (ilvl 329), but if you are able to queue for heroics, im curious as to how your hp is that low? I'm not saying it's a bad thing, because i've gone on my mage in heroics with tanks at 110k hp and cleared fine, it just seems odd to me that it wasn't higher since you were able to queue for heroics. But that's neither here nor there, just a thought. I agree with everyone else, that healer was probably used to tanks that had been chaining heroics for a while and didn't have to work as hard, then they got upset when they actually had to heal a tank that was geared for THAT content, not entry level raids. I think you're fine. I find the cool thing about being a tank, if I random into a group with players like that, I can just leave, wait a few minutes for the CD, then inst-queue up faster than they can find another tank...So they probably shouldn't bad mouth you :P

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:32 pm
by Fath
Hey

you can see my gear in my armory link in the first post. I hit 85 without going to
twilight highlands .. im planning on clearing it tomorrow .. i dunno why my hp is
so low .. i do not have stamina trinkets .. havent been lucky with the drops in stone core

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:42 pm
by econ21
Stamina trinkets are thin on the ground, so I would not rely on them.

As you have done some heroics with no problems, I would say you have enough HPs. Skill>gear for heroics imo.

However, it does look like you could upgrade your gear a lot. Have a look at Yappo's failsafe guide and Digren's gearing guide - there's a fair amount of non-heroic upgrades available for you.

Maybe the armory does not show it, but I can't see many enchants on your gear. Nor BS gem sockets on wrist and hands.

It's harsh, but I think PUGs often expect tanks to be geared the best they can be. I confess that's also my philosophy, although I know not everyone has the time to grind out every little upgrade and some have the skill not to need to.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:50 pm
by Kyoshkin
If you can tank heroics at 115k - you're definately a baaaaaad man!

I'm at 138k and die on trash in most heroics (forget the bosses) - so more power to you!

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:50 am
by Arcand
Kyoshkin wrote:If you can tank heroics at 115k - you're definately a baaaaaad man!

I'm at 138k and die on trash in most heroics (forget the bosses) - so more power to you!


I used to kick myself for never thinking to hit my defensive cooldowns - no more. Now I find myself hitting them quite regularly. :)

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:44 am
by Hokahey
Speaking from the healing side of the line, if I note sub 120k hp, it does make me "nervous". That being said, most of the horrible crap that eats tanks in heroics is mitigated by smart group play. Interrupts, attentiveness, movement, and sometimes crowd control. Still, higher hp is greater breathing room for bad group play, and bad group play happens a lot in LFD.

Also, keep in mind that part of what a healer is saying when they say the tank is undergeared, they are usually saying they aren't geared/skilled enough to keep the tank alive. So I think its fair to not totally disregard the guy who is trying his first couple of heroics, and has crap for gear himself.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:56 am
by Chasey
Did a guild run minus the healer yesterday in HoO, I was kind of shocked at the actions of my guildies. Ret pally, DK and lock. Me and Shammy heals. I'm sitting at 152k hp's and decent gear (pre-raids) but I marked targets and said CC go. The ret said "CC's a crutch just pull" This is the 1st 4 pull with the big mob that fire blasts you. The lock goes ahead and pulls w/o me expecting it. We got thru it after losing the DK and lock but me the ret pally and healer stayed up.
Group says to the healer, "get better" he responds with "you guys can CC, plz use it"
We get thru the first sets of trash and die on a trash pull w/the 1 big guy and 3 smaller ones and they vote kick the healer.

I'm at 152k, we had 12k DPS average and the healer was OoM every pull due to no CC and no intrupts. BTW the DK (who I dont know well) never had my target and was pulling aggro all over the place.

Just a tad of gear and people want the Wrath model back.

That being said, most of the horrible crap that eats tanks in heroics is mitigated by smart group play. Interrupts, attentiveness, movement, and sometimes crowd control.

Total truth.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:18 am
by Forgrim
Chasey wrote:Did a guild run minus the healer yesterday in HoO, I was kind of shocked at the actions of my guildies. Ret pally, DK and lock. Me and Shammy heals. I'm sitting at 152k hp's and decent gear (pre-raids) but I marked targets and said CC go. The ret said "CC's a crutch just pull" This is the 1st 4 pull with the big mob that fire blasts you. The lock goes ahead and pulls w/o me expecting it. We got thru it after losing the DK and lock but me the ret pally and healer stayed up.
Group says to the healer, "get better" he responds with "you guys can CC, plz use it"
We get thru the first sets of trash and die on a trash pull w/the 1 big guy and 3 smaller ones and they vote kick the healer.

I'm at 152k, we had 12k DPS average and the healer was OoM every pull due to no CC and no intrupts. BTW the DK (who I dont know well) never had my target and was pulling aggro all over the place.

Just a tad of gear and people want the Wrath model back.

That being said, most of the horrible crap that eats tanks in heroics is mitigated by smart group play. Interrupts, attentiveness, movement, and sometimes crowd control.

Total truth.


Man, I marked targets in a PUG once and it was the healer who said, and i quote verbatim, "The storming of the beaches of Normandy had less planning than this."

Impatient people...

Sadly, your situation is with guildies, and all my guildies and I are pretty close friends and have some sort of second intuition of what others are thinking. I pull skull, and every other target is incapacitated near instantaneous.

And back to topic, i started tanking heroics with 125k health, but 30-34% block, and same parry and dodge. Just liberal use of all your CD's, and you'll be fine.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:25 am
by Fath
well i upgraded a few pieces and im up to 122k unbuffed .. normally wih the priest buff and some others i get to around 142k .. i normally cc and we interrupt .. makes pulls so much easier .. yea i really to need to level up my jcing and bsing .. need to socket .. windwalk enchant on my server is like 8-13k ..
should have my epic tanking back piece after one more run .. ill definitely check out the guild though

i believe its more about play style .. even if i had 200k life .. if the groups didnt cc and i tanked em all i doubt the healer could keep me up .. but with cc and me using cooldowns i do alright

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:58 am
by Arcand
Hokahey wrote:Also, keep in mind that part of what a healer is saying when they say the tank is undergeared, they are usually saying they aren't geared/skilled enough to keep the tank alive.


This makes me wonder how often you play healers - there are absolutely some tanks who have small health pools and get the crap kicked out of them on every pull, and worse yet their poor stats are highly correlated with poor SA and failure to interrupt/use defensive cooldowns.

One ends up a better tank by taking that criticism on the chin instead of trying to deflect it onto the healer.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:22 pm
by bub64882
There a few pieces missing any enchants if Armory is accurate...Ask your guild levelling leatherworkers to kick down some grinded savage armor kits, and throw that free stam on the pieces that will be replaced shortly. You can trade them some short queue times on your heroic runs :).

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:44 pm
by Kyoshkin
Is it safe to assume that if you're having issues staying alive during trash pulls in regular instances that heroics are way out of your league?

I did a reg LCoT run this afternoon and died 2x to the trash (no-cc pygmy pull and the 4mobs after the bridge on the way to Repentance boss).

I'd like to think that my gear is good enough for tanking regulars (138k hp, 12% dodge, 14% parry, 34% mastery), but.. maybe not?

Armory: http://bit.ly/fZN663

In looking through the other threads around here and on EJ, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of "here's what a tank should have before setting foot into <insert easy heroic name here>"

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:03 pm
by inthedrops
You're fine for heroics. Are you using more than one CC and still getting wrecked? If so, it might not be you that's the problem. Poor DPS, poor healing, or poor tanking could each be the cause of your concern.

Honestly, get good at the regular versions of the place, get good at CC and not accidentally breaking it. Get good at knowing how to handle things when the "fit hits the shan".

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:47 am
by Crugeon
Kyoshkin wrote:Is it safe to assume that if you're having issues staying alive during trash pulls in regular instances that heroics are way out of your league?

I did a reg LCoT run this afternoon and died 2x to the trash (no-cc pygmy pull and the 4mobs after the bridge on the way to Repentance boss).

I'd like to think that my gear is good enough for tanking regulars (138k hp, 12% dodge, 14% parry, 34% mastery), but.. maybe not?

Armory: http://bit.ly/fZN663

In looking through the other threads around here and on EJ, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of "here's what a tank should have before setting foot into <insert easy heroic name here>"


Its been a while since I done any tanking but what is your hit at Kyoshikin? If you are having any issues it maybe you dont have enough hit. Just a thought, like I said I been out of the mix for a while and just started back again.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:08 am
by Kyoshkin
My hit is at about 3.5%, which these days appears "normal" (if not a little high).

I re-geared a little, so I'm up to 140k hp.. i might be able to survive some trash packs now... Only time (and the desire to incur greater repair costs) will tell.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:11 am
by Aerron
Kyoshkin wrote:My hit is at about 3.5%, which these days appears "normal" (if not a little high).

I re-geared a little, so I'm up to 140k hp.. i might be able to survive some trash packs now... Only time (and the desire to incur greater repair costs) will tell.


I might be wrong on this but 34% mastery at that level seems a little low to me. All of your other stats look right, but I'm running around with 47+% block, coming out on the far side of the heroics curve. Are you re-forging for Mastery?

I believe when I started Heroics I was at 42% block or so.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:07 pm
by Kyoshkin
I gutted through a couple of heroics as dps (my dps gear totally sucks, but I did it) and got the valor badges for the trinket.

I also gemmed up a bit different.. my block is still below 42%, but I'm not really sure how to up it w/o losing a lot of other stats (i.e. gemming purely for mastery to the exclusion of socket bonuses).

url: http://bit.ly/fZN663

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:19 pm
by Palizangetsu
Kyoshkin wrote:I gutted through a couple of heroics as dps (my dps gear totally sucks, but I did it) and got the valor badges for the trinket.

I also gemmed up a bit different.. my block is still below 42%, but I'm not really sure how to up it w/o losing a lot of other stats (i.e. gemming purely for mastery to the exclusion of socket bonuses).

url: http://bit.ly/fZN663


You can reforge your chest and belts dodge or parry to mastery, your pants can be reforged to mastery instead of expertise and your trinket instead of the parry being reforged into dodge could be reforged into mastery.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:10 pm
by Kyoshkin
Thank you! I did some of that.

Re: stats for tanking heroics

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 am
by fuzzygeek
Crugeon wrote:Its been a while since I done any tanking but what is your hit at Kyoshikin? If you are having any issues it maybe you dont have enough hit.


How is hit supposed to help his survivability? I'm not certain how this suggestion makes any sense, but I'd be curious to hear your line of reasoning.

I don't know how out of date this thread is given you responded yesterday, but it looks like you've gotten a couple pieces of heroic gear; even without the 346 drops, you should be able to tear heroics apart.