stats for tanking heroics

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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby bub64882 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:22 pm

There a few pieces missing any enchants if Armory is accurate...Ask your guild levelling leatherworkers to kick down some grinded savage armor kits, and throw that free stam on the pieces that will be replaced shortly. You can trade them some short queue times on your heroic runs :).
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:44 pm

Is it safe to assume that if you're having issues staying alive during trash pulls in regular instances that heroics are way out of your league?

I did a reg LCoT run this afternoon and died 2x to the trash (no-cc pygmy pull and the 4mobs after the bridge on the way to Repentance boss).

I'd like to think that my gear is good enough for tanking regulars (138k hp, 12% dodge, 14% parry, 34% mastery), but.. maybe not?

Armory: http://bit.ly/fZN663

In looking through the other threads around here and on EJ, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of "here's what a tank should have before setting foot into <insert easy heroic name here>"
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby inthedrops » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:03 pm

You're fine for heroics. Are you using more than one CC and still getting wrecked? If so, it might not be you that's the problem. Poor DPS, poor healing, or poor tanking could each be the cause of your concern.

Honestly, get good at the regular versions of the place, get good at CC and not accidentally breaking it. Get good at knowing how to handle things when the "fit hits the shan".
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Crugeon » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:47 am

Kyoshkin wrote:Is it safe to assume that if you're having issues staying alive during trash pulls in regular instances that heroics are way out of your league?

I did a reg LCoT run this afternoon and died 2x to the trash (no-cc pygmy pull and the 4mobs after the bridge on the way to Repentance boss).

I'd like to think that my gear is good enough for tanking regulars (138k hp, 12% dodge, 14% parry, 34% mastery), but.. maybe not?

Armory: http://bit.ly/fZN663

In looking through the other threads around here and on EJ, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of "here's what a tank should have before setting foot into <insert easy heroic name here>"


Its been a while since I done any tanking but what is your hit at Kyoshikin? If you are having any issues it maybe you dont have enough hit. Just a thought, like I said I been out of the mix for a while and just started back again.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:08 am

My hit is at about 3.5%, which these days appears "normal" (if not a little high).

I re-geared a little, so I'm up to 140k hp.. i might be able to survive some trash packs now... Only time (and the desire to incur greater repair costs) will tell.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Aerron » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:11 am

Kyoshkin wrote:My hit is at about 3.5%, which these days appears "normal" (if not a little high).

I re-geared a little, so I'm up to 140k hp.. i might be able to survive some trash packs now... Only time (and the desire to incur greater repair costs) will tell.


I might be wrong on this but 34% mastery at that level seems a little low to me. All of your other stats look right, but I'm running around with 47+% block, coming out on the far side of the heroics curve. Are you re-forging for Mastery?

I believe when I started Heroics I was at 42% block or so.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:07 pm

I gutted through a couple of heroics as dps (my dps gear totally sucks, but I did it) and got the valor badges for the trinket.

I also gemmed up a bit different.. my block is still below 42%, but I'm not really sure how to up it w/o losing a lot of other stats (i.e. gemming purely for mastery to the exclusion of socket bonuses).

url: http://bit.ly/fZN663
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Palizangetsu » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:19 pm

Kyoshkin wrote:I gutted through a couple of heroics as dps (my dps gear totally sucks, but I did it) and got the valor badges for the trinket.

I also gemmed up a bit different.. my block is still below 42%, but I'm not really sure how to up it w/o losing a lot of other stats (i.e. gemming purely for mastery to the exclusion of socket bonuses).

url: http://bit.ly/fZN663


You can reforge your chest and belts dodge or parry to mastery, your pants can be reforged to mastery instead of expertise and your trinket instead of the parry being reforged into dodge could be reforged into mastery.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:10 pm

Thank you! I did some of that.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 am

Crugeon wrote:Its been a while since I done any tanking but what is your hit at Kyoshikin? If you are having any issues it maybe you dont have enough hit.


How is hit supposed to help his survivability? I'm not certain how this suggestion makes any sense, but I'd be curious to hear your line of reasoning.

I don't know how out of date this thread is given you responded yesterday, but it looks like you've gotten a couple pieces of heroic gear; even without the 346 drops, you should be able to tear heroics apart.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:49 pm

I managed to tank H VP a few min ago. It went pretty well (no wipes) - but we had me, shaman, druid, and 2 warlocks, so it was the rare fight where I had to tank more than 2 mobs @ a time.

To answer your question - i have been queueing up as dps and taking whatever gear I can when the tank doesn't need it. Most of my attempts at tanking heroics have failed miserably.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:22 pm

Tank some regulars. Far underrated activity. The gear will help immensely and you'll get a feel for the trash pulls to boot.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:43 pm

theothersteve7:

There isn't anything i can grab from regulars gear-wise. I have tanked a ton of regs for just that purpose - it's just a matter of getting plastered on most heroics - although I tanked H SFK in a total pug today w/ no wipes and no CC.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Barathorn » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:31 am

Something is definately going wrong then Kyoshkin. I can happily handle the easier heroics with 125k unbuffed health, 11% dodge and 12% parry and about 39% block.

The average group I run with has 2 forms of CC [normally sap and hex/sheep] and on a 4 pull we will CC 2 mobs and I will tank skull after stunning X for 6 seconds with Hammer. This enables skull to be burnt down quick and for X to do little damage before you are tanking it. Then we kill sap, then hex/sheep.

Are you using cooldowns? I use 20% DR on most pulls.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby econ21 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:58 am

Your gear and its enhancement look fine to me, Kyoshkin. If you are wiping on trash, as Barathorn says, use more CC. (Or find better healers and dps!).

Are you using seal of insight and WoGing a lot? I find it can help in a PUG.

If the problem is bosses, then it is usually a matter of learning the appropriate tactics. Spank and tank is gone.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Xkonvikt » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:36 am

I think I have 136K self-buffed hp. I have 13% parry, 10% dodge and 54% block. With my guild I we can easily pull big group mobs and burn them down..(so long as we have our 17k dps fire Mage with us) I am in all heroic gear a few rep gear and a couple 359's..boots and belt. Rep grind Twilight rep for the 359 boots that are WTF nice! Then do Hyjal, all the while running those heroics it gets easier bro.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:36 pm

I have the boots, the wrists from the Ramakan (bad spelling, i know), and am working on the cloak.

I run with SoT, not SoI because dps seems to like pulling off me on trash packs. Bosses aren't usually a problem - surviving them is. :(

I think my main issue, to be honest, isn't a gear issue - it's a "I can't look @ 5 places on my screen at once" issue.

I'm tracking:

1) my health (i.e. determine which cooldown to use)
2) ability cooldowns (CS/HoTR, Cons, HW, AS, DP)
3) Threat
4) DBM (what specials do I need to dodge)
5) environment (are there rocks, lava, etc)

I can really only focus on 2-3 of those @ once. I can't find a way to focus on all 5 @ once, and it's the 2 that I'm not looking @ that bite me in the arse.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby econ21 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:17 pm

Kyoshkin wrote:I run with SoT, not SoI because dps seems to like pulling off me on trash packs.


I am not convinced SoT helps a lot on trash packs - afaik, it's a single target ability that takes a while to kick in. It will only help a lot on the skull if it lives a lot and skulled trash doesn't have a long life expectancy. Try SoI in fights where you think you may die and see how it feels.

it's a "I can't look @ 5 places on my screen at once" issue.


I guess that comes with experience - when you are used to the fights, you get a feel for what kind of aggro, survivability, environment you are likely to face etc. For example, most times, I don't look at my health bar as I have learnt I am not in a life threatening situation (I may glance at it when I have 3 HoPo to see if I should WoG or shield).

I don't know what add-ons you are using, but a few can help.

Threat plates is excellent for keeping an overview of what mobs are on you. The nameplate of mobs you have lost aggro on with be enlarged, making them easy to target.

I use power auras to tell me when I have 3 holy power, as tracking that on the default interface was just too hard.

QuickMark is useful for marking the skull and other raid icons. (Always having a skull marked to focus fire should solve 90% of your threat issues by keeping the dps focused and in the worst case, who cares if the dps pull the skull off you? - it's going to die fast.)
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:50 pm

Econ:

a great example would be forgemaster in H GB. I have to watch my threat (b/c kiting doesn't help threat), look for rocks/lava, look @ life (do I need to LoH yet), and look @ cooldowns (can I AS or judge yet)

given my gear, i have to kite both the mace and the blades (nobody seems to be able to disarm in the LFD pugs i get), so threat is always an issue unless we get lucky and he goes defensive @ first.

I'm using www.wow-lui.com (wow-lui) as my interface. It uses grid to show when someone pulls off me (which i've used since vanilla), omen (in middle of screen transparently), and it has my health and HP bars mid height, slightly left of center on the screen.

I get the feeling that the devs wanted to make WoW more of an FPS-style game geared to the quick-twitch players, and make it extremely hard/impossible for those of us who are older and can't twitch as fast as we used to.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby econ21 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:49 am

If you are talking about boss fights, then I agree - I've noticed Cataclysm does require you to keep track of several key things at once. I still suspect it's mainly a matter of experience though - I find it gets easier (almost) everytime I do a boss fight and my gear is not upgrading now.

With the forgemaster, I don't think you should try to kite the dual swords. With your gear, a decent healer should be able to keep you up in that period. Although I would be using SoI, WoG and defensive CDs during the swords to help out. You may struggle with threat if you are kiting for 2/3 of the fight. I am not even sure how you can kite him in swords, as - unlike with the mace - he will be moving at full speed.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Kyoshkin » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:18 am

Kiting w/ the swords out isn't too bad - i usually (read always) back up when he's picking weapons just in case he whips out his mace, so I always have a nice lead on him. Sure, I might get tagged on corner turns, but the rest of the time i'm taking minimal, if any damage - from the blades.

When I've tried tanking him straight up during blades, I've tried popping GoAK, DP, and AD, and still can't stay up - i'm usually down before I can get 3 CS in for a full strength WoG.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:08 am

Kyoshkin wrote:When I've tried tanking him straight up during blades, I've tried popping GoAK, DP, and AD, and still can't stay up - i'm usually down before I can get 3 CS in for a full strength WoG.


Then there's something wrong with your healer.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Palizangetsu » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:07 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Kyoshkin wrote:When I've tried tanking him straight up during blades, I've tried popping GoAK, DP, and AD, and still can't stay up - i'm usually down before I can get 3 CS in for a full strength WoG.


Then there's something wrong with your healer.


I'm going to assume the healer isn't dispelling you.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby Discus » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:58 am

I get the feeling that the devs wanted to make WoW more of an FPS-style game geared to the quick-twitch players, and make it extremely hard/impossible for those of us who are older and can't twitch as fast as we used to.


I read GC's latest BLOG linked to the log in screen as an admission that they may have swung the pendulum too far in this direction. WoTLK was too easy for the hardcore players, hardcore players are a loud minority on forums so tend to get over represented. The Devs listened to them and made Cata harder, but I think they are now thinking they went a little too far.
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Re: stats for tanking heroics

Postby xstrykr » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:45 pm

Kyoshkin wrote:I can really only focus on 2-3 of those @ once. I can't find a way to focus on all 5 @ once, and it's the 2 that I'm not looking @ that bite me in the arse.
You're not alone here. Tanking really does require a specific mindset, and it's really dependent on how well you react to things that you can see as well as react to things you know are coming.

1) my health (i.e. determine which cooldown to use)
If you're tracking your own health THAT much, I think you either need to a) get a unit frame addon and move your unit frames closer to the center of the screen, or b) get an addon that tells you when you're at a certain health threshold. Even though I have MSBT warn me when I get to 40% health so that I can pop a CD if necessary, I let my healer(s) worry about my own health so I don't have to as much. If your healers are letting you die THAT much, check recount to see what the real reason was - was that 5k overkill because your healer had a 10k Heal that came a half second late, when you needed the 12k Flash Heal instead? Or was it because the boss frenzied and you took 60k damage in the span of 3 seconds and no amount of Flash Healing could have saved you? With the former, a CD may not have saved you; with the latter, a CD probably would save you.

2) ability cooldowns (CS/HoTR, Cons, HW, AS, DP)
If you're doing your 939 correctly you shouldn't have to worry about this. Even less so if you're a keybinder and not a clicker. I personally think the default actionbars are complete crap. My bars are set up easily enough that I can reach all of my required buttons without needing to click or move my hands overly far. Adding MORE keybinds may help - don't limit yourself to the defaults.

3) Threat
Is your DPS riding your ass on threat THAT much? Have them wait one extra GCD before they go all out or make sure your own output is maxed (this is just as much gear-dependent as it is player-dependent). In a single-target scenario, you should be at 100% the entire time, provided you don't mess up your rotation too severely. In a multi-mob scenario, if one mob peels off, I expect my DPS to kill it before it kills them if it's in Execute range.

4) DBM (what specials do I need to dodge)
Repetition will make you a better player. Knowing the fights inside and out will get you more familiar with what's coming. Try to use all your senses though - if you're playing with the sound turned off or lower than Vent, try turning game sound up. I understand how important hearing guildies over Vent is, but if they're so chatty that they're distracting you from tanking, you could always move to a different channel with your group so that you can concentrate.

5) environment (are there rocks, lava, etc)
Everyone's got their own problems. Just make sure you can see what you need to see (turn up graphics, remove extraneous crap from your UI, zoom all the way out and don't play in first-person mode, etc). Again, from above, use all your senses. There are as many audio cues as there are visual cues to what's going on in the world.
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