Remove Advertisements

Righteous Defense "broken"?

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby Doxa » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:16 pm

Confirmed tonight we're back to the target-of-target behavior (i.e. must be cast on a group member).
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
Doxa
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:03 am

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby Ulrik » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:26 am

Well crap. I thought I had one miss tonight. I guess it's this crap happening. Great.
User avatar
Ulrik
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:51 am
Location: New England

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:23 am

I'm positive I used it on a mob yesterday, worked fine.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
Image
User avatar
Gamingdevil
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:16 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:32 am

I know how these things derail quickly into a "I didn't experience it so everyone else must be wrong thing". My post is going to sound like that but I don't actually feel this way.

Here are my observations however:
1. There are a lot of adds that change targets constantly to use abilities on random people. This will jack with RD.
2. Abilities like mind control recently changed, the MC'd mob upon release likes to stick to the mind controller for a bit. I noticed this change and asked the SP about it and he said he noticed it too. Anyone know if there's any fact to that?
3. I do catch "Misses" from RD on occasion and they show in the combat log.

In general, RD has always been *best* used by selecting a player due to the nature of the skill. The mob could change targets at any time and server/client lag can cause unexpected results.

Here is a combat log parse showing a couple misses:

Code: Select all
[19:09:57.179] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Sarina
[19:09:57.282]  Azureborne Destroyer afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[19:10:00.237] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Azureborne Destroyer
[19:10:25.436] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Dethstalker
[19:10:41.589] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Heliaster
[19:10:41.732]  Azureborne Destroyer afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[19:10:44.694] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Azureborne Destroyer
[19:11:12.301] Paperplate Righteous Defense  Azureborne Destroyer Miss *********
[19:11:12.301] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Vraiya
[19:14:15.310] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Fynnia
[19:14:15.335]  Wind Breaker afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[19:14:18.344] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Wind Breaker
[20:01:51.559] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Vemo
[20:01:51.931]  Twilight-shifter afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[20:01:54.891] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Twilight-shifter
[20:02:02.277] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Dethstalker
[20:02:22.419] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Kyleneari
[20:02:22.682]  Twilight Portal Shaper afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[20:02:25.676] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Twilight Portal Shaper
[20:02:43.013] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Grubstealer
[20:02:43.157]  Twilight-shifter afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[20:02:46.130] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Twilight-shifter
[20:04:22.854] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Kyleneari
[20:04:23.052]  Twilight Portal Shaper afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[20:04:23.052]  Twilight Portal Shaper afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[20:04:26.024] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Twilight Portal Shaper
[20:04:26.024] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Twilight Portal Shaper
[20:04:35.818] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Candes
[20:04:35.858]  Twilight-shifter afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[20:04:38.873] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Twilight-shifter
[20:04:46.403] Paperplate Righteous Defense  Twilight-shifter Miss ********
[20:04:46.403] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Silveria
[20:05:45.210] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Ebaytoon
[20:05:45.262]  Twilight Portal Shaper afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[20:05:48.287] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Twilight Portal Shaper
[20:06:15.955] Paperplate casts Righteous Defense on Candes
[20:06:16.264]  Twilight Portal Shaper afflicted by Righteous Defense from Paperplate
[20:06:19.262] Paperplate's Righteous Defense fades from  Twilight Portal Shaper


I do not use any macros. I either taunt from grid + clique or I taunt using RD directly on the mob. I do either interchangeably so I couldn't tell you what I did with the scenarios above.
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:41 am

I've been trying to figure out where the misses are coming from since I first encountered one a week or so ago. So far, I only have a few hypotheses:

  1. When taunts were changed to automatically succeed, HoR was changed but RD was not. This would mean RD is still on the spell hit table, which means up to a 9% chance to miss after talents on a level 88. However, the base miss chance against an 87 is only 6%, which is reduced to 0% by Touched by the Light. The Twilight-shifter in your parse is 87, so RD should not miss against it under normal circumstances, even if it were on the spell hit table. That suggests something else is going on.
  2. Maybe RD shows up as a miss when the mob is immune? HoR does show up as "immune" in those cases though. It would be odd, but it could just be a combat log reporting error.
  3. The mob or the player has a buff/debuff that increases chance to miss or invalidates taunts. This sounds like a possibility, and both the Azureborne Destroyer and Twilight-shifter have abilities that fool with aggro.

We should be able to test this:
  • Get two paladins (can be any combination, though tank/healer or tank/tank is probably safest) and wear gear that has 0 hit rating (if Holy, make sure not to take Enlightened Judgements).
  • Find a level 88/skull mob that melees weakly enough that you're not in danger. Let the healer pull healing aggro, and then both paladins alternate RD on the mob until it goes immune.
  • Wait for the immunity to wear off and repeat.

At 9% spell miss chance, there's a 0.9% chance of landing 50 RD's without a miss. 0.008% in 100 RD's.
At 17% (a healer's miss chance), it's 0.009% for 50, and 0.0000008% for 100.
For a tank/healer combination, 50 (25 each) would be 0.09% and 100 (50 each) would be 0.00008%.

If we can't do this on an 88, it's still possible on an 87 if both paladins spec Holy. That's only 6% miss though, so 100 taunts to push the likelihood down 0.2%. 150 would push it down to 0.009% though.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby Flex » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:01 pm

inthedrops wrote:2. Abilities like mind control recently changed, the MC'd mob upon release likes to stick to the mind controller for a bit. I noticed this change and asked the SP about it and he said he noticed it too. Anyone know if there's any fact to that?


Could this be an issue with Fade?
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7500
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby daishan » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:23 pm

Hey all
this is my 1st post I'm not sure if this issue has been sorted, tried searching but this was the most recent post i could find.
I was tanking Al'akir tonight and had RD miss twice when used on a party member (a druid and a paly healer) using healbot to target the raid member and trying to taunt the stormlings. I've got logs but don't know how to just link the correct lines of combat txt, here's a world of logs link if someone else can make any sense of it http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/lwnk ... enc=bosses
Daishan of <Nidor Amo Nex>
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby theckhd » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:26 am

[21:52:53.414] Daishan casts Righteous Defense on Glowbot
[21:52:53.666] Stormling afflicted by Righteous Defense from Daishan
[21:52:56.654] Daishan's Righteous Defense fades from Stormling
[21:53:10.696] Daishan casts Righteous Defense on Glowbot
[21:53:55.042] Daishan casts Righteous Defense on Borgrimm
[21:53:55.116] Al'Akir afflicted by Righteous Defense from Daishan
[21:53:58.101] Daishan's Righteous Defense fades from Al'Akir
[21:54:05.839] Daishan Righteous Defense Stormling Miss
[21:54:05.839] Daishan casts Righteous Defense on Leighton
[21:54:05.927] Stormling afflicted by Righteous Defense from Daishan
[21:54:08.949] Daishan's Righteous Defense fades from Stormling
[21:54:23.344] Daishan casts Righteous Defense on Glowbot
[21:54:23.572] Stormling afflicted by Righteous Defense from Daishan
[21:54:26.644] Daishan's Righteous Defense fades from Stormling
[21:54:43.626] Daishan casts Righteous Defense on Raira
[21:54:44.025] Stormling afflicted by Righteous Defense from Daishan
[21:54:47.057] Daishan's Righteous Defense fades from Stormling
[21:54:57.828] Daishan Righteous Defense Stormling Miss


So it's clear RD can miss. It's now just a matter of performing the tests I outlined above to determine what the chance is, and thus what mechanics it's using.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby daishan » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:09 am

Thx for the quick response,
Would the test still be valid if I used a lvl 80 pally and a lvl 83 mob, or maybe even a 84/85 mob to increase miss chance?
Daishan of <Nidor Amo Nex>
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:36 pm

Yup, it should work just fine. Just make note of your level, your partner's level, and the mob's level.

Note that lvl 84 Cata mobs might beat the crap out of level 80 testers though. :P
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Can also use older-world bosses (that are marked as Skull)

Molten Core, for instance.
Sur-Pseudo
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby Hiroko » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:57 am

I don't have formal test results but from Heroic Chimaeron attempts this week:

127 RD casts
9 misses

7.08% miss

my gear has 1.93% melee hit and 10.26% spell hit according to askmrrobot - not in game to check there atm - 232 hit rating.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-r ... ell/31790/

Closest number would suggest RD's on spell hit although the sample size is too small to be conclusive.

Forgot to add, this was by casting RD on the boss, no macro used.
Hiroko
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:30 am
Location: Hampshire - UK

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:47 am

Browsing that log, it looks like all of the misses were outside of Caustic Slime periods. So if your spell hit really is at 10.26%, this strongly suggests that RD is still dependent on spell hit mechanics.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby Arcand » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:08 am

Hiroko - are you a draenei, by any chance? I don't remember if they still
get a +hit bonus, or whether it appeared on the character sheet.
Arcand
Moderator
 
Posts: 4525
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:15 am

Re: Righteous Defense "broken"?

Postby Hiroko » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:21 am

Nah, human.
Hiroko
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:30 am
Location: Hampshire - UK

PreviousNext

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?