4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:00 am

Gamingdevil wrote:I don't really see the "HotR hits harder than CS" I just tested it on a dummy (which isn't easy, since HotR gives two hits) and my CS was hitting for 1900-2000 while HotR was hitting for 1650-1800 (rough values). And that's with the T10 2-pieces and glyph of HotR.


I've heard that the T10(2) bonus is affecting the main target damage of HotR, but not the splash.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:26 pm

d503 wrote:Likely, your browser is pointing to an older version of the calculator from a prior build.

I jut tried it on my iPad, which has never been to WoWtal, and has a cache of like one page. Didn't work.

Anyway, I've just checked, the link format of WoWtal has been completely altered. Builds post has been updated, hopefully it's fixed.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby d503 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:46 pm

knaughty wrote:
d503 wrote:Likely, your browser is pointing to an older version of the calculator from a prior build.

I jut tried it on my iPad, which has never been to WoWtal, and has a cache of like one page. Didn't work.

Anyway, I've just checked, the link format of WoWtal has been completely altered. Builds post has been updated, hopefully it's fixed.


Checked on my Palm Pre Plus, also webkit...new link works fine for me.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:48 pm

Arcand wrote:
Gamingdevil wrote:I don't really see the "HotR hits harder than CS" I just tested it on a dummy (which isn't easy, since HotR gives two hits) and my CS was hitting for 1900-2000 while HotR was hitting for 1650-1800 (rough values). And that's with the T10 2-pieces and glyph of HotR.


I've heard that the T10(2) bonus is affecting the main target damage of HotR, but not the splash.


Regardless, it still increases total damage and I posted total value.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby ck5uperman » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:00 pm

Q: What are our Holy Power generators?
A: We have two: One for Single target: Crusader Strike, one for AE, HotR[/b]
A:With currently level 80 tuning - HotR hits harder than CS single target!

Q: So what's Crusader Strike for?
A: Not breaking CC This issue will be fixed, but until it is, just use CS when you're tanking within 10 yards of CC, otherwise just use HotR for everything.

Q: What's our AoE rotation?
A: HotR, and whatever AE is off CD
A: Complicated when we get Inquisition at 81.

Q: What seal do I use?
A: Truth. Unless you can afford to lose one sixth of your TPS, then you could do Insight for the heals.

Q: Huh? Explain single-target more?
A: Bad French Accent: Listen closely, I will say this only once!
It's like 969. Except CS HotR replaces both "6" abilities. So your basic beat is HotR-x-HotR-x-HotR-x. Thus: 939
Then we have some 9s, just like 969.
First one is Judgment - keep it on CD, it does a ton of stuff, including keeping your mana up.
Second one is ShoR - use it every time you have 3 Holy Power (glow runic thingy bar). You can use WoG instead if you don't care about threat but you're about to die (H-LK, H-Halion-P3).
So we're at: HotR-Judge-HotR-xx-HotR-ShoR(WoG)
For the xx bit, alternate AS and Holy Wrath.
Don't mix up the order! This isn't 969. If you randomly hit shit that is off CD, you'll get clashes where you can't cast anything, and God kills a kitten.
Don't use Inquisition Single Target! You're doing it wrong.

Q: What do I do if ShoR misses?
A: Press it again.

Q: Do I judge ahead of ShoR if I don't have a SD proc?
A: No. Also: Why are you reading the basic FAQ?

Q: What about Grand Crusader procs?
A: Don't spec Grand Crusader. Solved. GrC needs work. Wait till they fix it before you spec into it. If you really want to know, you can wait for the Advanced FAQ, it's complicated. If you really hate WoG-boosting talents, grab it, but try to only sub AS procs in for HW, and remember you have Consecrate as filler for your otherwise dead GCDs.

Q: Explain the AoE rotation properly?
A: HotR instead of CS, Consecration > HW > AS for 9s Blow your HoPo on WoG at 80 (or ShoR the current kill target).
A: Complicated at level 81+!
OK, the theoretical perfect AE TPS "burst" is (once you're at 81):
<have 3 HoPo>-Inquisition (Wings) - HotR - Cons - HotR - HW - HotR - Inq - HotR - AS - HotR - ........
At that point you're out of AE shit to cast. Make something up until HW & Consecrate are back off CD.


I didn't think I was asking something the deserved such a rude response. The section above changed considerably since I posted that message. Further,
Q: Explain the AoE rotation properly?
A: HotR instead of CS, Consecration > HW > AS for 9s Blow your HoPo on WoG at 80 (or ShoR the current kill target).

can be reworded as we only use CS for crowd control.

Great topic/thread nonetheless.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:05 pm

@ck5uperman: I edited the first page, then posted that I'd edited it. 2 posts later, you ask if I've updated it...

Could be a caching issue, but the forum software does warn you if there's been a reply since you started creating a post. The piece you quoted already had hotr > cs at the time you asked.

I'm not going to tweak the whole FAQ to reflect the hotr scaling bug, as I expect it to be fixed quickly.

I'd apologize for being a grumpy old curmudgeon, but no one would believe me!
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby ck5uperman » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:34 pm

knaughty wrote:I'd apologize for being a grumpy old curmudgeon, but no one would believe me!


I believe.

Was likely caching. Thought the original HoTR was a typo b/c the AoE said to replace CS, but there was no CS to replace..

Anyway CS on SAURFANG FTW!!!!!!
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:15 pm

ck5uperman wrote:Anyway CS on SAURFANG FTW!!!!!!

Perfect example, actually.

CS > HotR, skip HW & AS while adds are up.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby ck5uperman » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:31 pm

knaughty wrote:
ck5uperman wrote:Anyway CS on SAURFANG FTW!!!!!!

Perfect example, actually.

CS > HotR, skip HW & AS while adds are up.


When adds are up I am throwing CS, Judge, and Exo.

I also made the simple image below for a few on my server who were overly confused and frustrated w/ the blizzard changes.
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I know my microsoft paint skills are totally awesome......
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Delacey » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:26 am

Firstly, thank you very much for the guide, I appreciate the amount of effort you have put in.

In regards to block cap and mastery, I noticed that my overall avoidance increases with Kings up, should I have been working towards 87.4% self buffed or unbuffed? Reaching it was no problem, but I obviously don't want to swap avoidance for block if I can help it.

Secondly, are AS and HotR going to become effects that ignore CC'd targets? In the majority of instances I really can't see that CS is going to be a better option, as the splash damage from the multi target abilities seems to help mitigate idiot DPS that can't attack the marked target...

Either way, the sky isn't falling in, I can still tank ICC, and Holy Power makes things a little more interesting... Thanks again for all your efforts, between you and Theckhd I haven't had to use a different site in more than 2 years :P
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:14 am

Delacey wrote:Secondly, are AS and HotR going to become effects that ignore CC'd targets? In the majority of instances I really can't see that CS is going to be a better option, as the splash damage from the multi target abilities seems to help mitigate idiot DPS that can't attack the marked target...

Answering the easy one:

AS ignores CC targets already, and has for huge chunks of time - since Ulduar or earlier. HotR doesn't and 97.32534% chance it never will.

The only time AS will hit a CC target is when your first target is CC'd - more accurate to say the bounce ignores CC'd targets. Big caveat: AS seems to pick it's targets when cast - if a mob is un-CC'd when you throw your frisbee, it's a valid target for bounce. If a CC goes out during flight time, your bounce can break it.

Example: Mobs are A, B, C & D - all within bounce range.

(1) You're throwing at "A" - CC status is ignored. If "B" is CC'd when you throw, AS will hit A, C, D.

(2) You're throwing at "A", as frisbee launches, no mobs are CC'd, AS picks two mobs at random from B, C, D. Meanwhile, Mr Mage is casting sheep at "B". AS launches, it picks A, B, D, skipping C. Sheep hits B. AS hits A, bounces to B, breaks sheep, bounces to D. Meanwhile, C has aggro'd on Mr Mage, because he aggroed the whole pack with sheep.

Solution: CC before AS is cast, or after it has hit.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Delacey » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:22 am

Thanks for clearing that up.

I was aware that AS didn't used to hit CC'd targets, but I was seeing some odd behaviour last night.. but considering some of the other odd behaviour I saw, it's really not important ;)...

Shame about HotR (I guess I am lazy :P ), I guess the thing to do will be CC a group at range, throw AS, lay consecration and when they get to me use HotR, safe in the knowledge the CC targets should be more than 10 yards away.

Have you noticed how spikey threat is btw? My threat was ranging from 8 - 30k tps last night, it looks like 3 stacks of holy power is mandatory to maintain threat in the burn phase of most encounters...
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Ajire » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:45 am

Hey people, I'm back with yet another very noobish question.

Concerning my block chance, the tooltip for my mastery under the "melee" section of my character sheet states that I have 24% chance to block up front, and and additional 2% for each point of mastery. With my current 12.44 Mastery, that should give ~50%. Sweet. Now, the "block" tooltip, under the "defense" section ticks in at 29% chance to block. :?:

What is the reason for this discrepancy? Simply Blizz being lazy about their tooltips or some diminishing return I forgot to take into account?

More importantly, which are the valid numbers I have to use when determining my progress towards block cap? (I suspect it's the value listed under "block", but just want to make sure)

Edit: On a related matter, does anyone know an addon to track my dodge/parry/block of incoming attack, in case I need to take a more... emperical approach to the issue?
Last edited by Ajire on Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby econ21 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:03 am

I think the talents section could be a little more nuanced (e.g. not saying GrC is "crap"). The nice thing about the new talent tree is that they have given us some real choice, very limited choice but choice nonetheless. The optimal decision is likely to be situational - what content are you running and what talents are good for that?

Reading theckhd's talent guide, almost all our points are spent on mandatory talents or ones necessary to fill out the prot tree. But still we are left with a few interesting choices - my reading is that at L80, its basically between self-healing talents and AOE ones (HG, GrC). You're recommending one way (WoG related talents); I've gone the other but I don't think either of us have necessarily made bad choices. The design goal was to make the choices optional with no one "cookie cutter" template optimal. I think Blizzard have succeeded with that aim.

For example, running Wotlk five mans (which I suspect a lot of newbies are doing to stock up on JPs and learn their new role), I don't see much of a role for WoG. By contrast, spamming consecration and AS may help keeping threat on trash when some other classes are going nuts with new found uber dps.

By contrast, if you are tanking LK or levelling in Cata, I can see WoG potentially having a role (along with improved hammer of justice).
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby xvan » Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:02 am

So I tanked ICC 10 man last night and noticed I was getting smashed pretty easy on normal modes when I usually do fine on hard modes. I figured out I was only at 90 avoidance and needed to hit the 102.4 mark. I reforged all my gear and the best I could get was like 99 avoidance unless I swapped out my Juggernaut's Vitality for a Corpse Tongue Coin and reforged the dodge off the coin to give me a lot of mastery. Would you take less avoidance for 192 more stamina or would you take less stamina to be unhitable?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Gronda » Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:39 am

xvan wrote:So I tanked ICC 10 man last night and noticed I was getting smashed pretty easy on normal modes when I usually do fine on hard modes.


Noticed this myself last night and I was only doing PoS. I've reforged some secondary to Mastery but I think I may need to regem a bit more now that things have changed.

To answer your question, personally I'd prefer to be more un-hitable than have some extra Stam
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:50 am

Some notes and observations from the last day or so:
1) Crusade is apparently bugged and not affecting HotR. Compounding matters, the T10 2-piece bonus seems to not be affecting the Nova portion of HotR, and the glyph may not be affecting it either (need more data for that yet). This significantly weakens HotR, as you can imagine. CS is definitely our go-to HP generator for single targets until this is fixed (and hopefully they buff CS so that it's still our single-target go-to after it's fixed).

2) Because of those two bugs, AoE tanking can be a bit of a pain. I ran about 9 heroics with a guild group last night, and while single-target threat was fine, I often struggled with AoE threat. Part of that was simply unfamiliarity, which got better by the end of the night. However, unglyphing Avenger's Shield and made an amazing difference, and the night was smooth sailing from that point on.

That also means that for AoE tanking, Grand Crusader clocks in at about 11.awesome on a scale of 1 to 10. I frequently pulled a pack and got a GC proc within the first two Hammers, which solidified aggro and meant that threat was completely fine on that pack.

I was also running a high-hit, high-expertise gear set with DPS trinkets (TAiaJ and DMC:G), which helped.

Consecration is almost irrelevant for AoE tanking. Once I had the rhythm down, I barely used it. Possibly once on every other trash pack, because I like to lead with AS-J-HotR-HW-HotR-Cons. Mana never seemed to be an issue with 0/2 Hallowed Ground, so Sanctuary and JotW are doing their job. That means that HG is probably just as unnecessary as we guessed.

So here's my updated stance on a few sections of the guide:
Glyphs: Don't glyph Focused Shield unless you're in a raid. You don't need it for bosses in heroic 5-mans anyway, and for trash you get much more DPS from the unglyphed version anyhow.
Talents: Grand Crusader is probably worth speccing. It's a decent single-target threat increase if used properly, and it's not a huge decrease if used improperly (as you noted, the difference between doing it right and doing it wrong is less than 5%). But more importantly, it's incredibly strong on trash, and since our current weak point is AoE tanking it can make clearing heroics 10x less stressful.

Hallowed Ground still not necessary.

Crusade is bugged for HotR.

Gear: Wear some DPS gear for heroics, you'll get more Vengeance AP by taking more damage and the extra threat stats will help a lot. Try and reach hit cap and 26+ expertise, which will help improve your threat.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Arcand » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:06 am

econ21 wrote:I think the talents section could be a little more nuanced (e.g. not saying GrC is "crap"). The nice thing about the new talent tree is that they have given us some real choice, very limited choice but choice nonetheless. The optimal decision is likely to be situational - what content are you running and what talents are good for that?


The guide's intended for brand new, eight pound six ounce baby tanks - so the teaching style is
"do this, this and this and you'll perform decently".

If you're thinking about situational optimization you've outgrown this guide, congratulations.
The forum next door has the nuances you crave, and come back to visit us whenever you like. :)
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby xstrykr » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:20 am

Ajire wrote:Concerning my block chance, the tooltip for my mastery under the "melee" section of my character sheet states that I have 24% chance to block up front, and and additional 2% for each point of mastery. With my current 12.44 Mastery, that should give ~50%. Sweet. Now, the "block" tooltip, under the "defense" section ticks in at 29% chance to block. :?:

What is the reason for this discrepancy? Simply Blizz being lazy about their tooltips or some diminishing return I forgot to take into account?

More importantly, which are the valid numbers I have to use when determining my progress towards block cap? (I suspect it's the value listed under "block", but just want to make sure)

The 24% mastery I *think* is supposed to be in the next patch; Right now our mastery should be 16% to start, and 2% with each Mastery point thereafter. Unless the change already went live, it's going to become 24% to start, and 3% per point thereafter.

Regardless, if you have ZERO mastery rating on you, you still start with a value of 8.00 Mastery. That is where your baseline value starts at. With 12.44 Mastery, that should translate to 24.88% Block chance, plus the 5% normal block chance just for having a shield equipped, so 29% sounds right. Either way, just think of it as "2% block chance per Mastery point." (3% if the change is live)

Ajire wrote:Edit: On a related matter, does anyone know an addon to track my dodge/parry/block of incoming attack, in case I need to take a more... emperical approach to the issue?

AFAIK the Tankadin mod does that... I disabled it for the time being, but I used to only use it for tracking my AD saves, so I don't remember if the functionality is in there.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Palisade » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:23 am

I would like some clarification... Is our block cap a factual 30% block? IE, the character sheet states block chance 30%. Or is there some calculation for the mastery we need to include to be sure A) we have enough and B) we aren't sacrificing other stats for unnecessary block chance?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby xstrykr » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:31 am

Palisade wrote:I would like some clarification... Is our block cap a factual 30% block? IE, the character sheet states block chance 30%. Or is there some calculation for the mastery we need to include to be sure A) we have enough and B) we aren't sacrificing other stats for unnecessary block chance?


This is why we have the glossary... though the definitions need to be updated for 4.0 (my changes in italics):
Glossary wrote:Block Cap - The point where additional Block Chance is pushed off the table. A paladin reaches this point against a raid boss when their chance to be missed+dodge+parry+block an attack adds up to 102.4. Formerly uncrushable.

Block Rating - Stat. Increases your chance to block an incoming attack.AKA Block Chance. Increased via Mastery ONLY; should no longer be on gear.

Block Value - The amount of damage absorbed by your shield when an attack is blocked. Changed in Cataclysm - now blocks a flat 30% of the incoming value.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Palisade » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:07 am

I must be missing something then.

Is there a hard percentage # we should be aiming to have for block chance? Or is it that we should be aiming to get 22% dodge, 22% parry and fill the rest in with block to reach 102.4%?

Sorry if these are basic questions with obvious answers. I'm just not getting it today.

I've been a tankadin since vanilla WoW, but took a hiatus from the game before Ulduar came out. With the advent of 4.0, I'm polishing off my shield and sword. But there's been a great many changes, and what I once knew is no longer the case.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby xstrykr » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:17 am

Palisade wrote:Is there a hard percentage # we should be aiming to have for block chance? Or is it that we should be aiming to get 22% dodge, 22% parry and fill the rest in with block to reach 102.4%?

This. Factor in Holy Shield and normal Miss rate.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby q111 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:44 am

Hi. Thank you for your guide, it was really informative, except that i have to wait for the Advanced Guide where the problem lies within Grand Crusader; but i can wait. Until then I have a question:

What's about the Glyph: Hand of Salvation? Ok, you would loose the permanent Aggro decrease, but you gain a castable fade that reduce all threat for 10 Seconds. Is this glyph also Meh?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Arcand » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:45 pm

q111 wrote:Hi. Thank you for your guide, it was really informative, except that i have to wait for the Advanced Guide where the problem lies within Grand Crusader; but i can wait. Until then I have a question:

What's about the Glyph: Hand of Salvation? Ok, you would loose the permanent Aggro decrease, but you gain a castable fade that reduce all threat for 10 Seconds. Is this glyph also Meh?


My impression is that it'll depend on the expected lifespan of the bad guy.

Will he fall over dead before 10 seconds elapse (5-man trash)? The glyph is better because you get more threat reduction and the expiry is irrelevant because the dead have no threat table.

Will he still be alive in 10 seconds (raid boss)? The glyph has zero long-term benefit. You're back where you started on threat plus you spent a global cooldown casting the Hand. Glyph = bad.

If all that is correct, you want the glyph for everything up to heroics, then dump it when you start raiding. I haven't done that yet but probably will.
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