4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:52 pm

ck5uperman wrote:Has this thread suggested in the most recent update that CS is pointless?


Did you read the first post or the post before your one? Both mention HotR > CS, as does the actual rotation post.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby martinw » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:40 pm

Question:

The Mastery is some kind of joke?!

If i think about End Game. Why should i increase Mastery if i only get block? Isnt the way like in WoTLK, get Mastery until block capped, then reduce mastery and increase dodge and parry?

For Warriors and Druids its a other thing, they should increase Mastery. Warrior get more critical block and druids more absorb, so what did we get?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Egtheridon » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:08 pm

On a side note you should probably re-glyph avenger's shield for bosses because now you can reglyph anytime anywhere as long as you got vanishing powder which is like fifty silver. A thirty percent increase is a pretty significant increase in threat, for something that can easily be swapped out.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:12 pm

martinw wrote:For Warriors and Druids its a other thing, they should increase Mastery. Warrior get more critical block and druids more absorb, so what did we get?


It's counterintuitive, but you may not want to trade mastery for avoidance. It has to do with spikiness of damage intake.

What works best for you may not work for someone with a different raid or healing corps.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby martinw » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:10 am

Hmm but where is the sense?

Example:

I reach the blockcap with 40% block, 21% parry and 21% dodge. Why should i increase the masteryrating? The better way is to increase parry and dodge, so that i get on the end f.e. 34% block, 24% parry and 24% dodge.

For Warriors and Druids its a other point, in cause of they have a good effect if they incrase masteryrating.

Hope its understandable.

So f.e. it was an idea to give us damage on block again and with higher masteryrating the damage we cause with block increase.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Egtheridon » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:47 am

once you reach block cap ofcourse you are gonna go for dodge or parry, but i think the point of increasing your mastery first is to reach it, because point for point its really cheap to increase block rating through mastery. and according to the latest beta build its three percent instead of two and the bas amount is a lot higher too lol.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:29 am

knaughty wrote:Links:

My Advanced FAQ is linked form my sig. Of course, it doesn't exist yet.

Towell-e-i-e-i-o's YouTube Channel Lots of Beta videos of level 85 content and mechanics. Good for getting a feel for what we're facing in December. Remember it's beta - older vids will be of obsolete mechanics. He's also having to make a lot of stuff up before the MATLAB was done.

4.0.1 Mastery/reforging guide If you want the details of how to reforge you gear for raiding ICC/Halion at level 80, check out this thread.

Theck's 4.0 Talent & Glyph guide The Canonical Source for talent & glyph weighting.

Theck's MATLAB & pounding headaches post. Go here for a migraine.


More links to come once we have more 4.0 content up - Basic FAQ appears to be one of the earlier major pieces since I rushed to get it out for 4.0.1


Thanks for the look out man I really Appreciate it. I'm updating every night. And now with the HOTR news I am going to go with that for tomorrows ICC HM 25 raid.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Jusi » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:45 am

Fantastic FAQ for a nub tank like me, let me fully understand 4.0 changes. Thanks a lot!

Q: OMG, 4.0.1 patch and I have to raid in 5 minutes tell me how to spec?
A: 0/31/4


Link seems broken, halp!
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby edsdame » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:50 am

Jusi wrote:Link seems broken, halp!



Works for me.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby econ21 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:12 am

One basic question that might go into a FAQ is what opening moves to make during a pull. I suggest Exo>J>AS>HotR (or CS)>1HPoSoR>Cons and then go to 939 rotation.

I've opened a discussion thread on this, but would welcome more feedback and discussion:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Jusi » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:11 am

edsdame wrote:
Jusi wrote:Link seems broken, halp!

Works for me.

That's what I'm getting on both Webkit and Firefox: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3871932/Screen% ... .06.02.png
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby sealava » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:18 am

^^ yep , its broken .
seems all the linked builds using that site are broken also .
would be helpful if posted on wowhead instead , seems more stable atm.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby edsdame » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:22 am

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This is what I get.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:44 am

I don't really see the "HotR hits harder than CS" I just tested it on a dummy (which isn't easy, since HotR gives two hits) and my CS was hitting for 1900-2000 while HotR was hitting for 1650-1800 (rough values). And that's with the T10 2-pieces and glyph of HotR.

This was with kings and might on myself and a 12% armor debuff on the boss from a random warrior.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby d503 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:51 am

You guys need to clear your cache on wowtal...if you're using Firefox, ctrl+shift+R, Chrome ctrl+f5, IE (god help you) ctrl+f5.

That will force a cache-dump and refresh.

Likely, your browser is pointing to an older version of the calculator from a prior build.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Arcand » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:00 am

Gamingdevil wrote:I don't really see the "HotR hits harder than CS" I just tested it on a dummy (which isn't easy, since HotR gives two hits) and my CS was hitting for 1900-2000 while HotR was hitting for 1650-1800 (rough values). And that's with the T10 2-pieces and glyph of HotR.


I've heard that the T10(2) bonus is affecting the main target damage of HotR, but not the splash.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:26 pm

d503 wrote:Likely, your browser is pointing to an older version of the calculator from a prior build.

I jut tried it on my iPad, which has never been to WoWtal, and has a cache of like one page. Didn't work.

Anyway, I've just checked, the link format of WoWtal has been completely altered. Builds post has been updated, hopefully it's fixed.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby d503 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:46 pm

knaughty wrote:
d503 wrote:Likely, your browser is pointing to an older version of the calculator from a prior build.

I jut tried it on my iPad, which has never been to WoWtal, and has a cache of like one page. Didn't work.

Anyway, I've just checked, the link format of WoWtal has been completely altered. Builds post has been updated, hopefully it's fixed.


Checked on my Palm Pre Plus, also webkit...new link works fine for me.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:48 pm

Arcand wrote:
Gamingdevil wrote:I don't really see the "HotR hits harder than CS" I just tested it on a dummy (which isn't easy, since HotR gives two hits) and my CS was hitting for 1900-2000 while HotR was hitting for 1650-1800 (rough values). And that's with the T10 2-pieces and glyph of HotR.


I've heard that the T10(2) bonus is affecting the main target damage of HotR, but not the splash.


Regardless, it still increases total damage and I posted total value.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby ck5uperman » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:00 pm

Q: What are our Holy Power generators?
A: We have two: One for Single target: Crusader Strike, one for AE, HotR[/b]
A:With currently level 80 tuning - HotR hits harder than CS single target!

Q: So what's Crusader Strike for?
A: Not breaking CC This issue will be fixed, but until it is, just use CS when you're tanking within 10 yards of CC, otherwise just use HotR for everything.

Q: What's our AoE rotation?
A: HotR, and whatever AE is off CD
A: Complicated when we get Inquisition at 81.

Q: What seal do I use?
A: Truth. Unless you can afford to lose one sixth of your TPS, then you could do Insight for the heals.

Q: Huh? Explain single-target more?
A: Bad French Accent: Listen closely, I will say this only once!
It's like 969. Except CS HotR replaces both "6" abilities. So your basic beat is HotR-x-HotR-x-HotR-x. Thus: 939
Then we have some 9s, just like 969.
First one is Judgment - keep it on CD, it does a ton of stuff, including keeping your mana up.
Second one is ShoR - use it every time you have 3 Holy Power (glow runic thingy bar). You can use WoG instead if you don't care about threat but you're about to die (H-LK, H-Halion-P3).
So we're at: HotR-Judge-HotR-xx-HotR-ShoR(WoG)
For the xx bit, alternate AS and Holy Wrath.
Don't mix up the order! This isn't 969. If you randomly hit shit that is off CD, you'll get clashes where you can't cast anything, and God kills a kitten.
Don't use Inquisition Single Target! You're doing it wrong.

Q: What do I do if ShoR misses?
A: Press it again.

Q: Do I judge ahead of ShoR if I don't have a SD proc?
A: No. Also: Why are you reading the basic FAQ?

Q: What about Grand Crusader procs?
A: Don't spec Grand Crusader. Solved. GrC needs work. Wait till they fix it before you spec into it. If you really want to know, you can wait for the Advanced FAQ, it's complicated. If you really hate WoG-boosting talents, grab it, but try to only sub AS procs in for HW, and remember you have Consecrate as filler for your otherwise dead GCDs.

Q: Explain the AoE rotation properly?
A: HotR instead of CS, Consecration > HW > AS for 9s Blow your HoPo on WoG at 80 (or ShoR the current kill target).
A: Complicated at level 81+!
OK, the theoretical perfect AE TPS "burst" is (once you're at 81):
<have 3 HoPo>-Inquisition (Wings) - HotR - Cons - HotR - HW - HotR - Inq - HotR - AS - HotR - ........
At that point you're out of AE shit to cast. Make something up until HW & Consecrate are back off CD.


I didn't think I was asking something the deserved such a rude response. The section above changed considerably since I posted that message. Further,
Q: Explain the AoE rotation properly?
A: HotR instead of CS, Consecration > HW > AS for 9s Blow your HoPo on WoG at 80 (or ShoR the current kill target).

can be reworded as we only use CS for crowd control.

Great topic/thread nonetheless.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:05 pm

@ck5uperman: I edited the first page, then posted that I'd edited it. 2 posts later, you ask if I've updated it...

Could be a caching issue, but the forum software does warn you if there's been a reply since you started creating a post. The piece you quoted already had hotr > cs at the time you asked.

I'm not going to tweak the whole FAQ to reflect the hotr scaling bug, as I expect it to be fixed quickly.

I'd apologize for being a grumpy old curmudgeon, but no one would believe me!
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby ck5uperman » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:34 pm

knaughty wrote:I'd apologize for being a grumpy old curmudgeon, but no one would believe me!


I believe.

Was likely caching. Thought the original HoTR was a typo b/c the AoE said to replace CS, but there was no CS to replace..

Anyway CS on SAURFANG FTW!!!!!!
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:15 pm

ck5uperman wrote:Anyway CS on SAURFANG FTW!!!!!!

Perfect example, actually.

CS > HotR, skip HW & AS while adds are up.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby ck5uperman » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:31 pm

knaughty wrote:
ck5uperman wrote:Anyway CS on SAURFANG FTW!!!!!!

Perfect example, actually.

CS > HotR, skip HW & AS while adds are up.


When adds are up I am throwing CS, Judge, and Exo.

I also made the simple image below for a few on my server who were overly confused and frustrated w/ the blizzard changes.
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I know my microsoft paint skills are totally awesome......
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Delacey » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:26 am

Firstly, thank you very much for the guide, I appreciate the amount of effort you have put in.

In regards to block cap and mastery, I noticed that my overall avoidance increases with Kings up, should I have been working towards 87.4% self buffed or unbuffed? Reaching it was no problem, but I obviously don't want to swap avoidance for block if I can help it.

Secondly, are AS and HotR going to become effects that ignore CC'd targets? In the majority of instances I really can't see that CS is going to be a better option, as the splash damage from the multi target abilities seems to help mitigate idiot DPS that can't attack the marked target...

Either way, the sky isn't falling in, I can still tank ICC, and Holy Power makes things a little more interesting... Thanks again for all your efforts, between you and Theckhd I haven't had to use a different site in more than 2 years :P
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