4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:52 pm

I've got to say, re: the Grand Crusader comments, you've been slamming the talent for the past few days but as you know Theck's numbers suggest it's s reasonably viable option, at least compared to most of the other minor threat increases. I honestly don't think it's that complicated to use properly either, certainly not in "Advanced FAQ only" territory. Simply following the 3HP SotR > CS > Judge > AS > HW priority makes it fall out just fine.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:11 pm

Rhiannon wrote:I've got to say, re: the Grand Crusader comments, you've been slamming the talent for the past few days but as you know Theck's numbers suggest it's s reasonably viable option, at least compared to most of the other minor threat increases. I honestly don't think it's that complicated to use properly either, certainly not in "Advanced FAQ only" territory. Simply following the 3HP SotR > CS > Judge > AS > HW priority makes it fall out just fine.

The GrC numbers came out (much) better than I expected, and my criticism of it has thus become more muted – the GC related sections of my FAQ have already been updated to reflect Theck’s research of the last 24 hours.

I still think that for the primary targets of my Basic FAQ that skipping Grand Crusader for this week is the right solution. If you haven’t been practicing 939 for the last couple of weeks, learn that first, then learn how to insert the proc.

It’s worth noting that I had to do a reasonable amount of writing without the advantage of having Theck’s latest MATLAB pass – I was working off the numbers from page 80-ish of the rotation thread, which were lot more negative re GrC. I’ve done a basic sanity check against his new data from page 100-ish and Theck’s checked it as well. The guide is defensibly correct at the moment.

I’ll look at adjusting I’ll look at adjusting my tone after I’ve had a chance to play the game! (And after I’ve had some more time to absorb the new numbers).

I’m also expecting that GrC will be “fixed” reasonably quickly, so writing a pile of stuff about how to use it properly in 4.0.1 may end up being a complete waste of time if it’s fixed in 4.0.3!

TL;DR: Criticism noted and will be taken into account for the 4.0.3 version of the guide.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Faecroll » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:07 am

Quick question in regards to block cap and diminishing returns, running the script from one of the other forums in game *

/script dr=function(x)return 1/(1/16+0.9560/x)end;DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+dr(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)/122.962)))


Once we are at that cap its basically stam and str we are stacking until Cata when the amount goes up correct?( if hit capped ,expertise capped, etc... ) I'm currently sitting at 103.71 ( 102.4 being the cap obviously) with 23 expertise ( glyphed) - I tried reforging my libram ( lowest amount item ) but went under the cap so its ok to sit over the cap and toss in an expertise gem ( Resolute Ametrine) or should I just keep gemming stam ?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Uprisen » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:32 am

Looking for a tank/spank macro because I'm lazy like that. Is this right?


/castsequence reset=8 Crusader Strike, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Avenger's Shield, Crusader Strike, Shield of the Righteous, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Holy Wrath, Crusader Strike, Shield of the Righteous
Last edited by Uprisen on Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:37 am

1% over or under cap isn;t going to make a massive difference, but given the choice, I'd pick "over cap".

For Halion (who has parry haste) I'd ensure 26+ expertise (I run it with 46+) but for other stuff, I'd gem stam.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Faecroll » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:41 am

yea thanks Knaughty - went 8.26% hit 28 expertise and 18.24 mastery which puts me overcap on all those with 20.99 dodge 20.93 parry - seems to be just fine - Ill do Algalon later in the week to seem how truckish he still is- thanks for the quick reply.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Scotty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:07 am

Given that this is the Basic guide I'd suggest that people are going to want to know about other basic stuff like hit, expertise - that sorta thing.

I'm not saying that you need to document that stuff yourself Knaughty ... but links to the relevant posts would be worthwhile.

And much thanks for the guide (and the chuckles each time I read it)
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Dilvish » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:06 am

After spending some quality time with a practice dummy I tested these suggestions in heroic halls of reflection last night and everything went very smoothly. Hitting ICC10 normal tonight.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:41 am

So my only question is once you have 3 HP, and you have judgment up should you use judgment before shield slam to try and get the crit buff if its not up or just instantly use your holy power.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Zalaria » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:12 am

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:So my only question is once you have 3 HP, and you have judgment up should you use judgment before shield slam to try and get the crit buff if its not up or just instantly use your holy power.


If you've done the 939 right, judgement won't be up.

Code: Select all
cs, j, cs, as/hw, cs, shor
    ^                 ^ judgement is still on cooldown
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby glmacedo » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:31 am

One question that may be considered stupid... Yesterday, I was testing both CS and HotR on a test dummy and each of them were hitting for about the same damage (a difference of 10 or so dmg in favor of CS), and their mana costs are about the same as well (100 mana difference)

So for the sake of simplicity, why not ignore CS for all but single target bosses and just go to town with HotR?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby nznova » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:53 pm

I'm really surprised to hear that Hallowed Ground is not worth taking. Without the 80% cost reduction on consecrate, isn't it going to be too expensive to ever use?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:18 pm

glmacedo wrote:So for the sake of simplicity, why not ignore CS for all but single target bosses and just go to town with HotR?

In end-game gear, apparently HotR hits harder. There's an update coming in 5 minutes.
nznova wrote:I'm really surprised to hear that Hallowed Ground is not worth taking. Without the 80% cost reduction on consecrate, isn't it going to be too expensive to ever use?

I ran some heroics last night with 0/2, AE tanking all the trash, and never got below half mana that I noticed. You don't need Hallowed Ground.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Draslin » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:25 pm

Quick Question (did a search but couldn't find anything useful) - Does Eye for an Eye work on boss fights where there is lots of tank magic damage coming in? Been considering picking it up in this spec (over improved judgement) for heroic sindragosa 10. The strat we use basically uses one tank until he dies, then the other swaps in and finishes out the fight. Eye for an eye could be a considerable amount of threat and damage dealt back to the boss, especially when arcane buffet and frost aura are considered.

Thanks!

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby ck5uperman » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:44 pm

Has this thread suggested in the most recent update that CS is pointless?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:52 pm

ck5uperman wrote:Has this thread suggested in the most recent update that CS is pointless?


Did you read the first post or the post before your one? Both mention HotR > CS, as does the actual rotation post.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby martinw » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:40 pm

Question:

The Mastery is some kind of joke?!

If i think about End Game. Why should i increase Mastery if i only get block? Isnt the way like in WoTLK, get Mastery until block capped, then reduce mastery and increase dodge and parry?

For Warriors and Druids its a other thing, they should increase Mastery. Warrior get more critical block and druids more absorb, so what did we get?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Egtheridon » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:08 pm

On a side note you should probably re-glyph avenger's shield for bosses because now you can reglyph anytime anywhere as long as you got vanishing powder which is like fifty silver. A thirty percent increase is a pretty significant increase in threat, for something that can easily be swapped out.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:12 pm

martinw wrote:For Warriors and Druids its a other thing, they should increase Mastery. Warrior get more critical block and druids more absorb, so what did we get?


It's counterintuitive, but you may not want to trade mastery for avoidance. It has to do with spikiness of damage intake.

What works best for you may not work for someone with a different raid or healing corps.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby martinw » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:10 am

Hmm but where is the sense?

Example:

I reach the blockcap with 40% block, 21% parry and 21% dodge. Why should i increase the masteryrating? The better way is to increase parry and dodge, so that i get on the end f.e. 34% block, 24% parry and 24% dodge.

For Warriors and Druids its a other point, in cause of they have a good effect if they incrase masteryrating.

Hope its understandable.

So f.e. it was an idea to give us damage on block again and with higher masteryrating the damage we cause with block increase.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Egtheridon » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:47 am

once you reach block cap ofcourse you are gonna go for dodge or parry, but i think the point of increasing your mastery first is to reach it, because point for point its really cheap to increase block rating through mastery. and according to the latest beta build its three percent instead of two and the bas amount is a lot higher too lol.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:29 am

knaughty wrote:Links:

My Advanced FAQ is linked form my sig. Of course, it doesn't exist yet.

Towell-e-i-e-i-o's YouTube Channel Lots of Beta videos of level 85 content and mechanics. Good for getting a feel for what we're facing in December. Remember it's beta - older vids will be of obsolete mechanics. He's also having to make a lot of stuff up before the MATLAB was done.

4.0.1 Mastery/reforging guide If you want the details of how to reforge you gear for raiding ICC/Halion at level 80, check out this thread.

Theck's 4.0 Talent & Glyph guide The Canonical Source for talent & glyph weighting.

Theck's MATLAB & pounding headaches post. Go here for a migraine.


More links to come once we have more 4.0 content up - Basic FAQ appears to be one of the earlier major pieces since I rushed to get it out for 4.0.1


Thanks for the look out man I really Appreciate it. I'm updating every night. And now with the HOTR news I am going to go with that for tomorrows ICC HM 25 raid.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Jusi » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:45 am

Fantastic FAQ for a nub tank like me, let me fully understand 4.0 changes. Thanks a lot!

Q: OMG, 4.0.1 patch and I have to raid in 5 minutes tell me how to spec?
A: 0/31/4


Link seems broken, halp!
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby edsdame » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:50 am

Jusi wrote:Link seems broken, halp!



Works for me.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby econ21 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:12 am

One basic question that might go into a FAQ is what opening moves to make during a pull. I suggest Exo>J>AS>HotR (or CS)>1HPoSoR>Cons and then go to 939 rotation.

I've opened a discussion thread on this, but would welcome more feedback and discussion:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic
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