4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby xstrykr » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:17 pm

Thanks as always, Knaughty.

One thing I did want to double check (seeing as how I haven't been on Beta/PTR in weeks) - We're still using Truth as our tanking seal, right? I figure Insight is the healing seal, Truth for tanking and Righteousness for DPS, leaving Justice for PvP...
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:15 pm

Shoju wrote:I have a question for you Knaughty.

Is Word of Glory worth enough if you aren't running H:LK level content to worry about?

Short answer? Dunno.

I'm hoping to do a little raiding tonight and tomorrow to try and get a feel for stuff, I'll get back to you after that.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:17 pm

xstrykr wrote:Thanks as always, Knaughty.

One thing I did want to double check (seeing as how I haven't been on Beta/PTR in weeks) - We're still using Truth as our tanking seal, right? I figure Insight is the healing seal, Truth for tanking and Righteousness for DPS, leaving Justice for PvP...

Yes, especially due to the SoT glyph, which is "Super Effective".

I'll update the FAQ later today to reflect that.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Ajire » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:52 pm

Just a short question: From what I can tell from the patch release notes, it seems that as a last minute change, CS is back on a 4.5 sec cooldown, and not 3 sec as claimed in this otherwise useful and disturbingly hillarious FAQ

What effect, if any, would this have on the rotation and - more interestingly - Grand Crusader? From what I could gather of the cataclysm discussion, part of the problem with GS is exactly that 3 sec cooldown.


EDIT: Nevermind! So sorry
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:57 pm

Ajire wrote:Just a short question: From what I can tell from the patch release notes, it seems that as a last minute change, CS is back on a 4.5 sec cooldown

Oh you are fucking joking.

Can we get in-game confirmation of what the CD is on Crusader Strike?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Mert » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:04 pm

Say it ain't so! I'm EU so I'm stuck in extended maintenance hell but please please someone with a working server tell me that CS is 3 seconds and the patch notes are all just a big practical joke / blatant lack of proof reading / dick move?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Ajire » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:12 pm

Argh fark :P Sorry, I didn't mean to cause undue alarm.

I'm on EU as well and have another 11 hours of maintainance to go. Of course with the forums now down, I was unable to track down the original blue posts, however, most ability databases now lists CS with a 4.5 sec cooldown, eg wowhead, where it had been 3 sec before.

I am however totally willing to admit that I have been a jerk until confirmation is in.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby d503 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:19 pm

Ajire wrote:Argh fark :P Sorry, I didn't mean to cause undue alarm.

I'm on EU as well and have another 11 hours of maintainance to go. Of course with the forums now down, I was unable to track down the original blue posts, however, most ability databases now lists CS with a 4.5 sec cooldown, eg wowhead, where it had been 3 sec before.

I am however totally willing to admit that I have been a jerk until confirmation is in.


Well, the ability is technically still 4.5 for Ret Paladins, so I'm not sure what is considered Canon on WoWHead or what the TT would show when data-mining.

IIRC, the 3s CS was a behind the scenes change invisibly made to Tankadins...as in, it shows nowhere in game.

Then again, I don't really remember looking at the actual tooltip while in beta...so I could be wrong.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:21 pm

I will assume this is baseless panic for now (caused by shitty proof-reading of patch notes).

The "Pick a Spec" panel for prot should say "Oh, yeah, and you get 1.5 seconds off Crusader Strike" - maybe in 4.0.3 they'll put that in.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Mert » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:24 pm

Can't seem to find the full changelist anywhere - only patch notes I could find are the abridged "paladins now get Holy Power lol" ones. Don't worry though Ajire, I guess it's good to bring it up if that is indeed the case. I thought Ret CS was going to remain at 4.5s, in which case that might explain the wowhead thing. Here's hoping anyway. And here's hoping the US servers actually do come back up - looks like they're at least going to be down 5 hours longer than planned...

Let's hope that whatever is causing issues for our Stateside buddies gets ported over to the EU and doesn't delay us! :D

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Ajire » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:25 pm

I stand corrected and humbly apologises for any undue panic.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Ajire » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:36 pm

Mert wrote:Don't worry though Ajire, I guess it's good to bring it up if that is indeed the case. I thought Ret CS was going to remain at 4.5s, in which case that might explain the wowhead thing.


Yes it seems that d503 and knaughty have sorted out the unfortunate misunderstanding on my part.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:43 pm

Updated. Buffed sarcasm & accuracy by 5.2%.

I'll probably wait 48 hours before next major update unless there's some huge problem.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:33 pm

Comments:

Grand Crusader in and of itself doesn't cause empty GCDs as long as you don't use AS every time it lights up. It's a flat-out DPS increase as long as AS is only used in the "X" slot in the rotation. That said, I agree that it's complicated enough for a beginner that suggesting they spec out of GC entirely isn't a bad solution.

For the AoE rotation at 80, I suspect it will be 939 with HotR as the 3's and AS(UN-glyphed)>Cons>HW>J as the filler, provided that mana isn't a problem. I hope to get around to simming AoE rotations this week.

Your glyph section is fine, you can remove the "unclear" now. The data is in the talent/glyph guide or the matlab thread if you want numbers.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:45 pm

theckhd wrote:Your glyph section is fine, you can remove the "unclear" now. The data is in the talent/glyph guide or the matlab thread if you want numbers.

Done. I'll re-check AE rotation stuff after I've had a chance to play :P

NB: my guide does not include recommending use of bugged stuff - it usually gets fixed to fast to be useful and teaches people bad habits.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:52 pm

I've got to say, re: the Grand Crusader comments, you've been slamming the talent for the past few days but as you know Theck's numbers suggest it's s reasonably viable option, at least compared to most of the other minor threat increases. I honestly don't think it's that complicated to use properly either, certainly not in "Advanced FAQ only" territory. Simply following the 3HP SotR > CS > Judge > AS > HW priority makes it fall out just fine.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:11 pm

Rhiannon wrote:I've got to say, re: the Grand Crusader comments, you've been slamming the talent for the past few days but as you know Theck's numbers suggest it's s reasonably viable option, at least compared to most of the other minor threat increases. I honestly don't think it's that complicated to use properly either, certainly not in "Advanced FAQ only" territory. Simply following the 3HP SotR > CS > Judge > AS > HW priority makes it fall out just fine.

The GrC numbers came out (much) better than I expected, and my criticism of it has thus become more muted – the GC related sections of my FAQ have already been updated to reflect Theck’s research of the last 24 hours.

I still think that for the primary targets of my Basic FAQ that skipping Grand Crusader for this week is the right solution. If you haven’t been practicing 939 for the last couple of weeks, learn that first, then learn how to insert the proc.

It’s worth noting that I had to do a reasonable amount of writing without the advantage of having Theck’s latest MATLAB pass – I was working off the numbers from page 80-ish of the rotation thread, which were lot more negative re GrC. I’ve done a basic sanity check against his new data from page 100-ish and Theck’s checked it as well. The guide is defensibly correct at the moment.

I’ll look at adjusting I’ll look at adjusting my tone after I’ve had a chance to play the game! (And after I’ve had some more time to absorb the new numbers).

I’m also expecting that GrC will be “fixed” reasonably quickly, so writing a pile of stuff about how to use it properly in 4.0.1 may end up being a complete waste of time if it’s fixed in 4.0.3!

TL;DR: Criticism noted and will be taken into account for the 4.0.3 version of the guide.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Faecroll » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:07 am

Quick question in regards to block cap and diminishing returns, running the script from one of the other forums in game *

/script dr=function(x)return 1/(1/16+0.9560/x)end;DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+dr(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)/122.962)))


Once we are at that cap its basically stam and str we are stacking until Cata when the amount goes up correct?( if hit capped ,expertise capped, etc... ) I'm currently sitting at 103.71 ( 102.4 being the cap obviously) with 23 expertise ( glyphed) - I tried reforging my libram ( lowest amount item ) but went under the cap so its ok to sit over the cap and toss in an expertise gem ( Resolute Ametrine) or should I just keep gemming stam ?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Uprisen » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:32 am

Looking for a tank/spank macro because I'm lazy like that. Is this right?


/castsequence reset=8 Crusader Strike, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Avenger's Shield, Crusader Strike, Shield of the Righteous, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Holy Wrath, Crusader Strike, Shield of the Righteous
Last edited by Uprisen on Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:37 am

1% over or under cap isn;t going to make a massive difference, but given the choice, I'd pick "over cap".

For Halion (who has parry haste) I'd ensure 26+ expertise (I run it with 46+) but for other stuff, I'd gem stam.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Faecroll » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:41 am

yea thanks Knaughty - went 8.26% hit 28 expertise and 18.24 mastery which puts me overcap on all those with 20.99 dodge 20.93 parry - seems to be just fine - Ill do Algalon later in the week to seem how truckish he still is- thanks for the quick reply.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Scotty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:07 am

Given that this is the Basic guide I'd suggest that people are going to want to know about other basic stuff like hit, expertise - that sorta thing.

I'm not saying that you need to document that stuff yourself Knaughty ... but links to the relevant posts would be worthwhile.

And much thanks for the guide (and the chuckles each time I read it)
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Dilvish » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:06 am

After spending some quality time with a practice dummy I tested these suggestions in heroic halls of reflection last night and everything went very smoothly. Hitting ICC10 normal tonight.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:41 am

So my only question is once you have 3 HP, and you have judgment up should you use judgment before shield slam to try and get the crit buff if its not up or just instantly use your holy power.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Zalaria » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:12 am

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:So my only question is once you have 3 HP, and you have judgment up should you use judgment before shield slam to try and get the crit buff if its not up or just instantly use your holy power.


If you've done the 939 right, judgement won't be up.

Code: Select all
cs, j, cs, as/hw, cs, shor
    ^                 ^ judgement is still on cooldown
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