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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:57 am
by Arklight
I totally agree. I've never ever posted on Elitist, they are indeed a bunch of muppets sometimes, and my post here would just have been shot down in flames and then the insults would have rolled in. I'm going to go and throw away all my Expertise and Hit now, and do a proper job on it. No doubt things will improve 100% as my gear is not that bad now. I've been playing paladin since the beginning of Burning crusade. And back then I never bothered with hit or expertise, or stam stacking. I concentrated on 102.4 and I was always the last one standing and made other paladin's look substandard. Then come wrath things changed, everyone had an opinion on how things should be, and some mechanics got changed, I lost heart for a while and started healing. A big mistake I regret now. It's time to go back to basics I see. I'm liking that, I'm liking a lot of things they've done in Cata. Thanks again for the help.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:54 pm
by bollwerk
knaughty wrote:Correct, we don't bother with hit/expertise in 4.0. Reforge using this priority list:
(1) Threat to Mastery.
(2) Avoidance to Mastery.
(3) The End. Do not reforge for threat.

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but my prot pally is not my main class.

When reforging Threat into Mastery, does that include just Hit and Expertise, or would that include Strength ever?
I realize you wouldn't want to reforge ALL of your Strength, but would there ever be a time when you want to? Such as if I'm under-geared and need more Avoidance until I get better gear?

BTW, I also noticed you use Glyph of Seal of Truth, which adds 10 Expertise. Is this a mistake or do we need this 10 Expertise?

Thanks for the great site.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:07 pm
by Njall
bollwerk wrote:

When reforging Threat into Mastery, does that include just Hit and Expertise, or would that include Strength ever?

BTW, I also noticed you use Glyph of Seal of Truth, which adds 10 Expertise. Is this a mistake or do we need this 10 Expertise?

Thanks for the great site.
[/quote]

You can only reforge secondary characteristics. Str/Sta/Int are primary ones. The glyph is pretty darn useful. Its a flat +10 rating which is an awful lot of Expertise points one doesn't have to have on one's gear.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:11 pm
by knaughty
You can't reforge strength.

The WoG glyph doesn't stack with the talents, so we use threat glyphs. SoV is one of the best options.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:14 pm
by theckhd
knaughty wrote:The WoG glyph doesn't stack with the talents, so we use threat glyphs.


Are you sure about that? I was under impression that the glyph stacked with our talents.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:38 pm
by knaughty
theckhd wrote:
knaughty wrote:The WoG glyph doesn't stack with the talents, so we use threat glyphs.


Are you sure about that? I was under impression that the glyph stacked with our talents.


Well, technically "Long Word" works, but since the primary effect is to help reduce overheal by converting half the WoG into a HoT it has no useful effect when combined with 2/2 "Guarded by the Light" means you can't overheal anyway - it just gets turned into a bubble. Long Word doesn't increase the size of the WoG.

So yes, you could use them together, and it mostly works, but there's no benefit.

There's also the possibility that the HoT created by Long Word doesn't operate correctly with GbtL, which would mean that you'd actually be worse off. I'm not sure on that one.

No benefit, possible suckiness, Long Word = fail for prot.

I suppose you could use a Prime slot on Seal of Insight, replacing Crusader. Hadn't thought about that one.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:58 pm
by Flex
There's a Glyph of Word of Glory which increases the heal by 10%

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:17 pm
by theckhd
Long Word is certainly questionable, but most people think of Glyph of Word of Glory when they hear "the WoG glyph."

A lot of us are running SoInsight/WoG/(something else) for progression right now.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:33 pm
by knaughty
Will update Glyph section based on feedback. :)

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:12 am
by tkitch
bollwerk wrote:Apologies if this is a dumb question, but my prot pally is not my main class.

When reforging Threat into Mastery, does that include just Hit and Expertise, or would that include Strength ever?
I realize you wouldn't want to reforge ALL of your Strength, but would there ever be a time when you want to? Such as if I'm under-geared and need more Avoidance until I get better gear?

BTW, I also noticed you use Glyph of Seal of Truth, which adds 10 Expertise. Is this a mistake or do we need this 10 Expertise?

Thanks for the great site.


1) Can't reforge strength as mentioned by a lotta people

2) You can only reforge ONE stat per gear piece, so if you reforge hit you can't reforge a second one.

GoSoT: (That's just an awkward acronym now, innit?) It's a lot of threat in a glyph slot. It's also a fair bit of damage when stacked on a boss. There's no reason to not use it to help get your threat lead up. Once you're at double / triple the threat of your nearest DPS, you can switch to SoI to heal more.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:31 pm
by Wrecquiem
Thank you! I started Paladin tanking when 4.0 came out and have never really had any direction. I learned a lot!

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:50 pm
by Tearulai
Do the damage reductions on our cooldowns stack? If I pop all three, including Guardian, am I getting more than a 50% damage reduction or am I (mostly) wasting the other cooldowns? I thought I'd read somewhere that they stack multiplicitivly but I could not find the post on searching again.

Thanks for the help and the great FAQ!

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:29 pm
by Kyoshkin
Yes, they do stack, but there are very few fights where you need that much of an "oh s**t!!" button. At that point, it's usually a lost cause anyway.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:06 pm
by tkitch
They stack multiplicative-ly, not additively.

GoaK = 50% DR
DP = 20% DR

Total DR = 60% (Since 20% of 50% is 10%)

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:37 am
by Brian888
Hey everyone, I'm a first-time poster here and a newbie paladin tank. First off, thank you for a great guide. It's been very helpful to me as I've been leveling up my paladin. I've only run a few instances so far, but I've been holding threat with superglue.

I do have a few questions, mostly inspired by the ongoing discussion in this forum.

1.) The original post suggests the continued use of SotR throughout the fight. However, knaughty has since suggested that only one use of SotR, at the beginning to establish threat, is necessary, and that afterwards the way to go is to blow HoPo on WoG. Which is the right way to go? Further, is the "one use of SotR, then spam WoG" only for end-game raiding, or would that work while leveling up from 1 on as well?

2.) As a follow-up to point 1, is Seal of Truth still the way to go for seals, or would the WoG spam method make Seal of Insight the way to go?

3.) If WoG spam is indeed the way to go, which glyphs should we use? Would the glyphs for Seal of Insight and WoG replace the glyphs for SotR and CS?

4.) Do you have a preference for professions for a paladin tank?

5.) I'm a little unclear as to when the AoE rotation should be used. Is it necessary if I've only pulled two or three mobs, or is it really more for a lot more mobs than that? I only ask because Consecration is such a mana hog, especially at my low level (I haven't really gotten most of the AoE abilities yet), that I don't want to be inefficient and mana-starve myself for no good reason.

Thanks for your insight, everyone.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:04 pm
by Kevian
knaughty wrote:Tip 2: I didn't check your gear or armoury. Please check mine. Copy my first spec (the second prot spec is my "Rated BG PvP" spec).


Knaughty:
I've been running rated BG's for the past 4 weeks as a prot pally and I'm loving it. I was asked to carry the flag this past week in WSG and that was awesome. I'm going to take a look at your spec when I get home, but in case you logged out in pve gear, how do you gem and enchant for rated BG's? Do you gem for strength or stamina? My primary role in 10's and 15's is to run flags and guard bases.

Please share any other tips you may have as well. Rated BG's are proving to be a blast; the most fun I've had playing WoW in a long time.

Thanks,
Kevian

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:55 pm
by xstrykr
Brian888 wrote:Hey everyone, I'm a first-time poster here and a newbie paladin tank. First off, thank you for a great guide. It's been very helpful to me as I've been leveling up my paladin. I've only run a few instances so far, but I've been holding threat with superglue.

I do have a few questions, mostly inspired by the ongoing discussion in this forum.

1.) The original post suggests the continued use of SotR throughout the fight. However, knaughty has since suggested that only one use of SotR, at the beginning to establish threat, is necessary, and that afterwards the way to go is to blow HoPo on WoG. Which is the right way to go? Further, is the "one use of SotR, then spam WoG" only for end-game raiding, or would that work while leveling up from 1 on as well?

Short answer: use your own discretion.
Long answer: For leveling as prot, given that you don't get SotR until 39 at the earliest, WoG is really your only HoPo dump until you get it. So in that sense, you need to use WoG to dump HoPo. Once you get SotR, I'd probably use it as necessary.

I haven't raided yet this expansion; I'm sure that I might use more WoG's against a raid boss than I do when I'm in a 5 man. Generally speaking, when I'm doing a 5man boss, I'll just WoG as necessary. I usually end up with slightly more SotRs than I do WoGs.

2.) As a follow-up to point 1, is Seal of Truth still the way to go for seals, or would the WoG spam method make Seal of Insight the way to go?

As said earlier, if you can afford to lose 1/6th of your TPS, it'll work. However I feel the Prime WoG glyph isn't as powerful a prime glyph as the other choices. The benefit of healing yourself (which you should be doing w/ 99% of your WoG spam) is that you take a load off your healers.

3.) If WoG spam is indeed the way to go, which glyphs should we use? Would the glyphs for Seal of Insight and WoG replace the glyphs for SotR and CS?

Probably; I personally would still keep GoSotR though.

4.) Do you have a preference for professions for a paladin tank?

As long as you're not using useless (read: crap) professions (Herbalism, Tailoring, Skinning mainly, Leatherworking and Inscription to a lesser degree), you're fine. BS/JC is considered the two best for min/maxing; any combination of BS/JC/Ench/Eng is considered good. I personally don't like having two crafting professions, so I'm Mining/JC; I know plenty of people who do take two crafting professions, and so are either JC/Ench or BS/JC. In the end, it's all up to YOU - pick two that you want to work with.

5.) I'm a little unclear as to when the AoE rotation should be used. Is it necessary if I've only pulled two or three mobs, or is it really more for a lot more mobs than that? I only ask because Consecration is such a mana hog, especially at my low level (I haven't really gotten most of the AoE abilities yet), that I don't want to be inefficient and mana-starve myself for no good reason.

3 mobs doesn't necessarily mean it's an AoE pack, but if it's a group of 2-3 I usually will switch off between CS and HotR, leaving my AS and HW to take care of threat on the other mobs. The only time I really use Consecrate is when I'm pulling a large group - usually 5+ - and I'll use it shortly after they're all grouped up on me. I usually tell my DPS to wait until they see the consecrate to start DPS if I don't have a threat transfer.

Thanks for your insight, everyone.

Hope this helps! Welcome to Maintankadin!

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:09 pm
by Brian888
Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:44 pm
by knaughty
Kevian wrote:
knaughty wrote:Tip 2: I didn't check your gear or armoury. Please check mine. Copy my first spec (the second prot spec is my "Rated BG PvP" spec).


but in case you logged out in pve gear, how do you gem and enchant for rated BG's? Do you gem for strength or stamina? My primary role in 10's and 15's is to run flags and guard bases.


Short reply from iPhone.

I'm going to change my second spec to drop eye4eye - it doesn't return much damage. Will pick more direct damage talents.

For gems/enchants: resilience massively beats everything. Order after that is probably: strength > crit > stam > haste.

Stamina isn't great: pvp vengeance stack is tiny, so minimal AP. Resilience much better for not dying than stam or dodge.

Unlike Wrath, pve gear mostly sucks. Wear ret-pvp.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:16 am
by Kevian
Thanks Knaughty, that's exactly what I was looking for. As I continue to gather my Vicious gear, I'll gem and enchant accordingly.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:29 pm
by knaughty
For both PvE and PvP I'm matching socket bonuses on pretty much everything.

Free stats are free.

PvP meta I'm currently using crit/1% spell reflect as the 10% stun resist meta requires too many blue gems. I believe this is fixed in 4.0.6?

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:38 am
by Håvard
I'm curious, would it be an issue for an 84 to tank the 84-85 dungeons (non-heroic)? Specifically, I'm referring to the Lost City of Tol'vir, Grim Batol, and Halls of Origination on normal mode.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:28 am
by fuzzygeek
Håvard wrote:I'm curious, would it be an issue for an 84 to tank the 84-85 dungeons (non-heroic)? Specifically, I'm referring to the Lost City of Tol'vir, Grim Batol, and Halls of Origination on normal mode.


No.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:43 am
by Flex
Don't do what every other tank I've had in normals do and not mark CC and rush into every pull like you are a god and you should be fine.

Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:00 am
by Håvard
fuzzygeek wrote:No.


Merci.

Flex wrote:Don't do what every other tank I've had in normals do and not mark CC and rush into every pull like you are a god and you should be fine.


Gotcha, thanks.