4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:52 pm

theckhd wrote:
CS is an OK 3rd prime for AE

I assume that was supposed to be s/CS/HotR, or else s/AE/ST


I subbed CS in for HotR but forgot to adjust the wording. Fixed.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:41 pm

Just a quick update from the field: 

Based on first three raid targets, the correct raiding build will be to maximize WoG. We've killed OmegaTronRobotCouncil and Tol Barad, and given GenieTriplePlayBoss enough of a try to understand the mechanics, ShoR is used for snap aggro on the pull and for locking down a taunt or target switch. Outside first 10 seconds of a boss fight, you don't generally need the threat from ShoR, while the healing from WoG is both substantial and useful. Yes, those are different things. I keep being asked b beakers "Zomg! Where'd that heal come from?"

General pace of combat is much slower - you do have time to act to shit. You can spend enormous amounts of time not topped off, you only need full health for boss specials, not the next swing. Reactive use of CDs is thus possible. I'm using the two 20% CDs ver frequently as "help the healer catch up" cool downs. You can pop them preemptively to save some healer mana. I'm stacking them for a real CD or using GAnK.

Put the PBAoE heal on you bars. Very useful in heroics - there's lots of "stack up and take damage" phases. Your healer will appreciate the help.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Ojimaru » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:56 pm

Question regarding pulling: Which would be a better sequence?

a) Divine Plea > Avenging Wrath + Inquisition > Avenger's Shield > Judgement

or

b) Divine Plea > Avenger's Shield > Judgement > Avenging Wrath > Shield of the Righteous

(or does Avenging Wrath and Inquisition stack at all?)
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:09 pm

Ojimaru wrote:Question regarding pulling: Which would be a better sequence?

a) Divine Plea > Avenging Wrath + Inquisition > Avenger's Shield > Judgement

or

b) Divine Plea > Avenger's Shield > Judgement > Avenging Wrath > Shield of the Righteous

(or does Avenging Wrath and Inquisition stack at all?)


My best guess is:

c) Divine Plea -> Avenging Wrath -> Judgement -> Avenger's Shield (if it fits) -> ShoR

Reasoning:
  1. Inquisition isn't optimal for single-target use.
  2. Judgement is our hardest hitting ability once you include the ShoR crit proc.
  3. AS is pretty damn good as well, especially glyphed.
Thus: You want to boot them with AW as well as the ShoR.

Tip: If you want a seriously OP threat lead in the first 5 seconds, and you have a gentle trash-pack before the boss:

  1. Save 3 HP from last trash pack.
  2. Engage boss quickly
  3. Wings -> ShoR -> DP -> ShoR -> 939
  4. 10 seconds into boss fight, switch to WoG spam. You'll have an unassailable threat lead.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:11 am

I've been saving AW and DP for about 10 seconds into the fight rather than using them on the pull. In other words, I pull with

Judge->AS->CS->Cons->CS->(AS or 0.5+Jud)->CS->AW+SotR->DP->SotR->939

This should give slightly more overall threat, provided you can manage the first 10 seconds without AW. It guarantees that you'll get 3 SotR's in during AW, allows you to build up stacks of Censure first, and gives Vengeance a little time to stack up. I usually run with a rogue or hunter, so the first 30 seconds on a boss aren't usually a problem; the bigger concern is making sure that I eclipse the highest DPS player before Tricks runs out.

After 30-60 seconds, threat usually becomes trivial enough that I can switch to WoG spam, and often Seal of Light on progression fights.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby brainwashed » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:59 pm

Is there a cheat cheat or translator for the common abbreviations used? I'm not understanding half of the abbreviations listed and would love to be able to follow the guide. It looks amazing.

Maybe I could look at Wowhead with the class spells open and try to see what matches where.

Thanks in advance and sorry to be a rookie.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:11 pm

brainwashed wrote:Is there a cheat cheat or translator for the common abbreviations used? I'm not understanding half of the abbreviations listed and would love to be able to follow the guide. It looks amazing.

Maybe I could look at Wowhead with the class spells open and try to see what matches where.

Thanks in advance and sorry to be a rookie.

There is a glossary posted somewhere - I'll add it to the list of links.

Thinking about it, given this FAQ is potentially the first place people look, I'll add the top dozen abbreviations to the FAQ so people can understand WTF I'm talking about.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby brainwashed » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:17 pm

knaughty wrote:Thinking about it, given this FAQ is potentially the first place people look, I'll add the top dozen abbreviations to the FAQ so people can understand WTF I'm talking about.


That would be invaluable to me. Thank you.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Ojimaru » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:39 pm

What? There are people who actually can't tell the difference between DS, DP, DPl, DSt and DG?

But yeah, a glossary in one of the keystone posts in these forums should help standardise the use of some abbreviations.

#deathtoabbreviations
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby gjm777 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:48 am

Awesome OP.

As playing mostly ret, I really don't care for the reliance on RNG at the moment, and wanted to try my hand at tanking. It's kind of daunting with the cata content, and now that I'm 85, I can't really queue up for the 80is dungeons, so it's hard to get practice. I just don't want to screw up and waste peoples time, as patience seems to be thin most of the time. Any advice on getting practice? Regardless, this guide helps out so I thank you for your effort.
A question I had was consecration is almost impossible for me to use as its just too mana expensive. I currently do not have any points into hallowed ground though, so mostly I have been using inq/HW in its place. Is this normal?
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Thanks again.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby DexterBelgium » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:48 am

I think that's a good basic Frequently Asked Question that a lot of people who have in the distant past played a prot pally will be asking now, and the answer is: YES. Consecration has been demoted to an ineffectual mana hog of a spell, which should only be broken out when swarmed with mobs, and then only while under the influence (of Inq). I personally prefer not to spend points in hallowed ground (seeing as its not that great of a talent), and just work "around" consecration.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby inthedrops » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:41 am

gjm777 wrote:Awesome OP.

As playing mostly ret, I really don't care for the reliance on RNG at the moment, and wanted to try my hand at tanking. It's kind of daunting with the cata content, and now that I'm 85, I can't really queue up for the 80is dungeons, so it's hard to get practice. I just don't want to screw up and waste peoples time, as patience seems to be thin most of the time. Any advice on getting practice? Regardless, this guide helps out so I thank you for your effort.
A question I had was consecration is almost impossible for me to use as its just too mana expensive. I currently do not have any points into hallowed ground though, so mostly I have been using inq/HW in its place. Is this normal?
Here is a link to my build, but I will update my sig as well.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... n/advanced

One possible way to practice would be to solo something potentially difficult and try to stay alive. It won't help with the skills in picking up adds and saving others, but it will help with the skills os staying alive while avoiding damage and pushing buttons.

Just as an example, enter into some of the new zones on regular mode and tank the first trash pack by yourself. Stuns, interupts, LoH, WoG'ing, paying attention to which mob is doing what, keeping things in front of you, utilizing line of sight, all of these things come into play when you're in a situation which can kill you pretty quick.

Once you're good at keeping yourself alive, it'll be easier to divert your attention to keeping others alive.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby econ21 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:17 pm

I would rephrase the answer on seals a little. It goes against the grain, but I am finding seal of insight absolutely amazing for soloing, heroic 5 mans and PvP. Switching from truth to insight is like night and day. I can't comment about raiding, as I have not done it yet post-Cata, but suspect with vengance, we CAN usually afford to lose 1/6 of our tps. At least past a certain point in the fight. Indeed, for tanking proper, my hunch is that it is probably best to switch seals - start off with truth, when you need to lock down aggro (esp. on adds), then switch to insight when survival/healer mana starts to be an issue. [My own mana is also more of a problem for me in 5-mans than I anticipated and insight trivialises that.]
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:37 am

@econ21: I'll test it after the holidays. I'm in the country with nothing but an iPad. Sounds logical.

No computer or decent Internet means the Jaguar is getting a massive amount of work, however!
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Awyndel » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:46 am

theckhd wrote:Judge->AS->CS->Cons->CS->(AS or 0.5+Jud)->CS->AW+SotR->DP->SotR->939


That sounds perfect for threat. But I am a little bit concerned about pulling without holy shield up. How do you go about dangerous pulls on survival fights?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby inthedrops » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:03 am

Awyndel wrote:
theckhd wrote:Judge->AS->CS->Cons->CS->(AS or 0.5+Jud)->CS->AW+SotR->DP->SotR->939


That sounds perfect for threat. But I am a little bit concerned about pulling without holy shield up. How do you go about dangerous pulls on survival fights?


Don't worry so much about Holy Shield before the pull. It's an extra 10% if you block, shouldn't be the end of the world. A lot different that WotLK where it was extra block rating.

Divine Plea before the pull for 3 HP, Judge for Sacred Duty while running in, then ShoR once in melee range, then go into your rotation. Holy Shield will be up and you'll maybe take one hit without it.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:32 am

Also remember that when you pull, you have full health, your healers all have full mana and everything off cooldown, and you have zero vengeance and no threat lead. Taking a couple big hits isn't such a bad thing, it'll help get combat flowing. It would take a gimmick fight for the tank to die within the first ten seconds of the pull.

I usually don't open with a shield slam; you can get two slams with possible SD procs and wings up if you open it right, at which point threat is pretty much resolved for the rest of the fight. If you don't have any hunters or rogues, or it's a fight where a hard opening burn is important, you may want to reconsider. And of course some fights the DPS has to do something other than hit the boss for the first ten seconds.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby smiter » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:02 pm

Haven't tanked in awhile (since pre 4.0 patch). finished leveling my hunter to 85 and got sick of ridiculous 45minute wait times. I Plan on running a lot of randoms as tank. First time in got BRC and did ok no wipes or anything but i did a lot wrong. Had to come refresh myself here on tanking basics. Didn't use CS at all was basically judging, sotr and consecration and AS when off CD.

Read up on new tanking basics and then had some fun. On on pull I had inquisition up, popped wings, shammy popped hero and i had 3HP hit SOtR and wow did it hit hard...im only at level 82 on my paladin and I crit for 34K never seen a SoTR hit for really even half that before. I lold pretty hard.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:06 pm

Awyndel wrote:
theckhd wrote:Judge->AS->CS->Cons->CS->(AS or 0.5+Jud)->CS->AW+SotR->DP->SotR->939


That sounds perfect for threat. But I am a little bit concerned about pulling without holy shield up. How do you go about dangerous pulls on survival fights?

Divine Plea -> Judge -> AS if not in melee range -> ShoR -> 939
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Gabe » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:38 pm

This might be just me but it seems a bit odd for a basics guide not to even mention Aura management. It could be that using Devotion Aura is such a no-brainer that it needs not mentioning or that the choice is so situational that not much can be said, but it might be good to give people a push to the right direction.

Haven't really been able to find info on what are the more specific trade-offs from different auras. I get that trading Devotion Aura to Retribution aura is trading mitigation to threat and DPS but how much of the former are you losing and how much of the latter gaining? How much elemental damage needs to be dished out during the fight for the Resistance Aura to be worth it? Are there buffs from other classes that don't overlap with a specific aura and we should know to skip it?

Or I could be just completely missing the place where auras are discussed. If so I do apologize. Feel free to point me the right way.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:47 pm

Good suggestion!

Short answer: 90% of the time, Devotion. The other 10% is resistance. We don't need the threat from Retribution.

Long Answer: Depends on group makeup.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Flex » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:16 pm

Devotion and the Armor totem totem no longer stack so if you can make sure your shaman's totem is in range you can use different auras without sacrificing mitigation now.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Xkonvikt » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:48 am

The ONLY time I switch auras is one if I am fighting only an elemental I switch to resistance, or if I am kiting mobs around (i.e Rajh fight in Halls) I will switch to ret stop every few feet let them get a couple whacks and throw a HotR start running again. I am spec'd for PoJ. It si so situational that you can't really give any advice to it. Devotion is ran 90%, followed by resistance 9%, Ret 1%.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:24 pm

We nearly always have a Resto Shaman that's doing Stoneskin (usually have another shaman or DK for str/agi) and Healing Stream which has resistance with a glyph (?). So I mostly use retribution since that's about the only thing that doesn't overlap with anything else.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Arklight » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:03 pm

Hi,

Basic question for all you protection paladin's out there. I've been 85 a couple of weeks now, and I've been collecting rep and normal gear, also breaking into heroics and getting some gear there. But something feels wrong. I die very easily. And I've been doing a lot of reading. Ending up here. Some of what I am reading confuses me, so I've a couple of questions to clear things up.

First off, here's my Battle.Net link :

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/bronzebeard/arklight/simple

I started off with trying several builds, and though happy with the one I have, I'll be trying out the one I found here :

http://wowtal.com/#k=-e40M656K.a67.paladin. - See how that goes.

I Started off by making sure I was both Hit capped (8%), and expertise soft capped (26), This was done by reforging the higher of the dodge or parry rating (to avoid diminishing returns?). I still seemed squishy, nothing felt right (I do appreciate things are harder now). So the link you see above is me being hit capped but not bothering yet with the expertise cap.

Then I started reading here. And something I have seen a few times now has me confused. "You don't seem to be reforging hit / expertise into Mastery" - Huh? This was in response to someone who's freshly hit 85. Are we now saying don't bother with hit or expertise? And instead reforge it all off to Mastery to mitigate damage? Would this not gimp all our threat?

Second question. Parry and dodge. They both seem to be doing the same thing, avoiding damage. However I have been noticing a lot of gear has massive parry numbers on but there's not so much dodge gear out there. I read somewhere that you should reforge the higher of the two ratings to the other to avoid diminishing returns. True?

Thanks for reading. Hopefully when I check back here tomorrow I'll feel enlightened :)
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