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4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Chicken » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:50 am

Faecroll wrote:I have also found that , for the first tier of raiding we'll be using Windwalk which will make PoJ pretty much obsolete
Not quite. Windwalk doesn't look like it'll have 100% uptime, nor is it particularly helpful in cases where you aren't moving away from or with a mob.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Faecroll » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:21 pm

Correct Chicken, according to the parses I am running Windwalk has about a 10.3% uptime. And the extra HP gain on stun /fear is nice for PoJ _ I guess it depends on how much your raid depends on the tank interrupting or not , those 2 points will probably become interchangeable depending on what your raid comp is like and what bosses you're doing. I know PoJ would be nice for fights likeHailfus , whereas Imp HoJ would be nice for Cho'Gall.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby degre » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:30 am

knaughty wrote:Q: Anything else?
A: Expertise is GOD of TPS If you're after threat, stack expertise. Soft-cap is 22-23 @ 80 in 4.0.1, back to 26 at 85. +Hit is better than Expertise past soft-cap (and no one likes a taunt resist). So: Expertise to soft-cap, Hit to cap, then stack stamina. Stamina is ~80% of the threat of Strength and, ZOMG, you're a tank. You can afford to lose 20% of a second tier TPS stat to boost your EH.

Last I've heard, taunt can't be resisted anymore ;)
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Kuridan » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:25 am

knaughty wrote:Q: What about my glyphs?
A: Here's the basics:
  • Prime: Seal of Truth and ShoR to begin. CS is "OK" single target, but feel free to pick a utility Prime you like - CS is pretty shit. HotR glyph doesn't buff the AE bit, which makes it useless.
  • Major: Holy Wrath for stunning the EleDragoMentals. Avenger's Shield if you're OK with losing the bounce, but be aware you'll be erasing it a lot. HoJ if doing H-LK. Consecration is OK, the rest are very "Meh"
  • Minor: LoH! The rest are "Who cares? but I'll be taking BoK & BoM.


What's the deal with the HotR glyph, is it a bug or what. The tool tip doesn't say anything about only effecting the main target. Going to log a heroic and test this.
(Edit: Here is a link to the log I made [url]
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ox9a ... 2m4d1/log/[/url] )

(Edit #2: I did some more logging this time on a dummy, both with and without the glyph, it's a fairly small sample, but there does appear to be a difference in the damage. In such a small sample its hard to say whether the difference is from the glyph or just randomness.
With glyph http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k9wal3s7jac3kgwl/log/
Without glyph http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8o7osqq6ycwe5k9y/log/

Also LoH (reduce LoH Cd by 3min) is a major glyph not a minor. Divinity (give 10% mana on LoH) is also a major. All the minor glyphs just reduce seal/blessing cost by 50%.
Last edited by Kuridan on Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Kuridan » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:11 pm

I saw this asked, but didn't see any answer. You are recommending reckoning, but what about parry haste? Is this gone or not? I don't think it will be an issue for dungeons, but once into raids it could be.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:57 pm

Kuridan wrote:Also LoH (reduce LoH Cd by 3min) is a major glyph not a minor.


That's a bloody annoying change, though it was a very nice minor - verging on OP. Pretty shit for a Major.

Kuridan wrote:I saw this asked, but didn't see any answer. You are recommending reckoning, but what about parry haste? Is this gone or not?


My understanding is that Parry haste is gone.

degre wrote:Last I've heard, taunt can't be resisted anymore ;)


Correct, next update will mention that. Hit is still an awesome stat.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Durun » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:22 am

Just a few things I was hoping to get some input on since patch 4.0.3 has hit. The Shattering seems as if it was an appropriate term, because it seems to have shattered paladin tanking somewhat. Some concerns I have are the following:

Divine Bulwark now grants 2.25% less block chance per point of Mastery, up from 2%.

No major concern here, I am assuming the word "less" is a typo in the patch notes, because it is a buff, not a debuff. My only thoughts on this is that they did this change in order to balance out the changes to Holy Shield.

Holy shield no longer increases chance to block. Instead, it increases the amount blocked by an additional 10%, for a total of 40% damage blocked.

Having this not increase my chance to block has me a bit concerned. I am now under my unhittable cap and I am a bit worries. I am trying to increase my mastery rating a bit more but as is, it would mean sacraficing either hit or expertise, neither of which I really want to drop below cap. I like the change to it over all, allowing 40% damage to be blocked, but getting back up to that unhittable cap seems to be a bit more challenging to balance now.

Shield of the Righteous: Contribution of attack power halved (now 60% with full Holy Power) and base damage brought up so that a level 85 paladin in Heroic dungeon gear deals the same damage with no Vengeance, but Vengeance has less impact.

So far from playing with this, I am somewhat happy. It allows me to not have such a large difference in my threat between hitting with no holy power and max holy power, and evens out the threat somewhat so its not such large spikes. Any other input or thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Shield of the Templar now reduces the cooldown of Guardian of Ancient Kings by 40/80/120 seconds, down from 1/2/3 minutes.

No guardian of ancient kings so I can't really judge this yet, but from my experiences in the beta, it just makes our overall "OS" buttons spread out a bit more.

Wrath of the Lightbringer now increases Crusader Strike and Judgement damage by 50/100%, up from 30/60%.

Single target threat has been increased, something i felt we needed while attempting to maintain that 969 rotation, but I have only noticed minor differences.

So a few concerns of mine. In some ways it seems like our AoE threat took a major hit. I know one concern people had was the change to divine plea. I've actually found this to be a great threat boost in those tight situations and combined with the t10 4pc bonus, it can be rather beneficial if used properly. Any thoughts on how to balance out our unhittable cap now that we lost our holy shield bonus?

A link to my armory for thoughts or specific suggestions.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&cn=Durun
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby tlitp » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:06 am

knaughty wrote:
Kuridan wrote:(...) what about parry haste? Is this gone or not?

My understanding is that Parry haste is gone.

Functionally - "yes", mechanically - no. All NPCs presumably have their PH flags disabled (because it's unfeasible to test 50k targets, we'll just have to trust in Blizzard's own statement). However, in the grand scheme of things PH is still alive : observed on mid beta, then tested on PTR.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:37 pm

Kuridan wrote:What's the deal with the HotR glyph, is it a bug or what.


It was bugged in 4.0.1 and 4.0.3. It is now fixed in 4.0.3a.

Interestingly, 2T10 is not, and still only affects the physical portion.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:30 pm

One Quick Question

How are you guys pulling. I just now realized that Divine Plea gives full HP now? So do you just work that into your rotation every minute?

And start the pull with Excorcism( When applicable, and mys well have Avenging Wrath linked to it since once we have Vengeance stacks we'll be fine on threat anyways), Avengers shield, Judgment, Divine Plea and Then Shield slam?

Or should you wait to see if you get a sacred duty proc?

I'd imagine it shouldn't make too much of a difference? It seems like it is definitely best to use it on the pull the divine plea that is.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:38 pm

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:One Quick Question

How are you guys pulling. I just now realized that Divine Plea gives full HP now?


Answered a couple of pages ago.

DP -> (Optional) Exo -> AS -> ShoR -> 939

Judge before ShoR if mob isn't in melee range yet.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby DexterBelgium » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:31 pm

Great FAQ, as usual.

The proposed 80 talent build is busted by blizz's sneaky changes to Guarded by the Light tho. The "overheal bubble" now only kicks in as of 2/2 GbtL, so taking one point in it doesn't make any sense any more (unless you only want the holy shield effect, but to me, the bubble seems essential to make WoG usable for us).
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Gamingdevil » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:06 pm

DexterBelgium wrote:Great FAQ, as usual.

The proposed 80 talent build is busted by blizz's sneaky changes to Guarded by the Light tho. The "overheal bubble" now only kicks in as of 2/2 GbtL, so taking one point in it doesn't make any sense any more (unless you only want the holy shield effect, but to me, the bubble seems essential to make WoG usable for us).


It's the other way around for me. I'd use it when I need it, not whenever I can. If I only use it when I have a health deficit, I don't need the bubble and I'd much rather keep the additional mitigation from Holy Shield.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:52 pm

DexterBelgium wrote:Great FAQ, as usual.

Thanks. :mrgreen:

DexterBelgium wrote:The proposed 80 talent build is busted by blizz's sneaky changes to Guarded by the Light tho. The "overheal bubble" now only kicks in as of 2/2 GbtL, so taking one point in it doesn't make any sense any more (unless you only want the holy shield effect, but to me, the bubble seems essential to make WoG usable for us).

My view is that the old version made the second point useless - we got everything important from the first point. Splitting the shield and the bubble to first and second point evens out the two talent points and makes both useful.

To be general: I'll be doing an update to the FAQ very shortly (possibly tonight) to cover all the changes through to 4.0.3a and the "level to 85" period, probably some advice for prepping for raids.

To be specific to GbtL: I'd strongly recommend the first talent point if you're ever going to cast WoG (and you will cast it). The second point becomes valuable if you're going to cast WoG a lot, rather than only as an "oh shit". My expectation is that we'll cast WoG a fair bit so the second point will be quite good for most people.

TL;DR:
  • 1/2 GbtL: Almost mandatory.
  • 2/2 GbtL: Good talent point, probably better than sticking a point in a threat talent for nearly everyone.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:01 pm

Gamingdevil, talking about WoG / GbtL wrote:It's the other way around for me. I'd use it when I need it, not whenever I can. If I only use it when I have a health deficit, I don't need the bubble and I'd much rather keep the additional mitigation from Holy Shield.


My limited experience (level 80, Halion-25-hard, BiS gear) is that once we have a full stack of Vengeance, threat becomes an utterly trivial issue. I was quite literally doing double the TPS of pre-nerf Fury Warriors: I’d end Halion P1 with 2 million threat, the warrior would have 1 mil. In that circumstance, you can either ShoR for some extra damage that isn’t going to really help that much, or you can WoG and save your healers some stress/mana.

For the (probably relatively few) balls-to-the-wall DPS races you’ll use ShoR (and making sure you have hit/expertise gear on). For everything else I’ll be using (and recommending) WoG. That makes the 2nd point pretty strong.
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