4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby d503 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:42 am

Awyndel wrote:I've been having some trouble with my aoe rotation in dungeons. Not that agro is a problem atm. Everything sticks like glue, but that's prolly also coz I get grouped with lower geared ppl often.

However, I get stuck after a certain number of gcd's. Basicly I'm just using hotr for my 3, and hitting the hardest aoe 9 wich is off cd, using WoG on 3 holy power. On 3 targets I give AS prio, otherwise HW.

Would it be better to just substitute from the single target rotation? Hotr as the 3, concecrate/judgement as first 9, AS/HW as second 9, and WoG as 3rd?


In the time it takes to build up that 3 HoPo WoG, you could always smack it with a full-powered ShoR. I tend to use ShoR on the least threatened mobs when I'm AoE tanking. Just tab around, since it's doesn't really matter what you're attacking with HotR.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:27 am

Updaterized.

HotR can eff-off and be an AE tanking move, even if tuning is slightly busted right now. You can learn to hit CS, for the same reason my 3.0 FAQ didn't abuse the "ShoR Rank 1 & 2" bug. L2Pcorrectly so when they fix the bugs you're not suddenly Donald.

I've also been to a GrC Sensitivity Training course and I've stopped hurting its feelings. It wants to be our friend and can't control the fact it was dropped on its head a few times as a baby. :roll:
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Palisade » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:23 am

Just a couple of tid bits and a request for confirmation.

Bubble Wall is not on the GCD. I've been spamming it along with Ardent Defender for every boss fight. I didn't see any comment on using Bubble Wall in the guide. Bubble Wall is a flat damage reduction ability, and imho should be used every CD. It helps the healer. Yes, it does reduce some of your vengeance, but vengeance won't matter if you splatter.

As for confirmation, I'm not at home to check atm, but I'm thinking that Wings are also no longer on the GCD. Every boss fight, I'm pulling with exo, then (in order,) clicking AD, Divine Protection, and Avenging Wrath.


On the subject of wings... With the cool down being so much shorter now and with the lack of a debuff, shouldn't we be using wings every CD? Added threat means more dps means things die faster means less damage incoming.

Am I off base here?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Kihra » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:04 am

One thing that may be worth mentioning is that positioning of a boss is now hugely important. Before 4.0, if you turned your back to a boss briefly, the worst thing that would happen is that you would lose your avoidance and you might take a couple of back-to-back hits. However healers already expect you to avoid nothing, and they can keep up with a situation like that.

In 4.0, if you turn your back to a boss even briefly, you suddenly take a hit for 43% more damage! For any hard-hitting bosses, it's a death sentence to even take two unblocked hits, so it is now a HUGE HUGE deal to always keep a boss in front of you.

Maybe a section in the FAQ about "I am taking way more damage than I used to! Halp!" that explains:

(1) The armor formulas changed for 81+ mobs. Raw hits are harder now.
(2) Keep Holy Shield up at all times.
(3) Block cap yourself with Holy Shield + food + Kings + Battle Shout.
(4) NEVER NEVER NEVER let a boss get behind you. Unblocked hits are scary!
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:32 pm

Palisade wrote:On the subject of wings... With the cool down being so much shorter now and with the lack of a debuff, shouldn't we be using wings every CD? Added threat means more dps means things die faster means less damage incoming.

Am I off base here?


Avenging Wrath has been off the GCD for most (if not all) of Wrath content. Now that it doesn't lock you out of anything, yes, pop it on cooldown if you want. I always use it on the pull after Tricks has worn off (they didn't stack in Wrath, I'm assuming they still don't).


Palisade wrote:Every boss fight, I'm pulling with exo, then (in order,) clicking AD, Divine Protection, and Avenging Wrath.

Wait, what? So on every pull, you pop your only two survival cooldowns? Granted, with 1- and 2-minute cooldowns they'll be available again reasonably quickly, but that puts you in a pretty crappy position for reacting to damage spikes early on.

There's really no reason to hit either on cooldown right now. If healer mana was an issue, then maybe there'd be an argument for that. But in 4.0.1 that's still not the case, so I don't think minimizing total damage taken is a more effective strategy than saving them for near-death experiences.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:15 pm

DP on the pull seems reasonable, given it's a 1 minute CD and we won't have Holy Shield up for at least a few GCDs. Popping both seems imprudent, but if there's a lot of healers running into position and not healing right off the bat, it might make sense for certain applications.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Screamin » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:30 am

knaughty wrote:Q: Anything else?
A: Expertise is GOD of TPS If you're after threat, stack expertise. Soft-cap is 22 @ 80 in 4.0.1, back to 26 at 85. +Hit is better than Expertise past soft-cap (and no one likes a taunt resist). So: Expertise to soft-cap, Hit to cap, then stack stamina. Stamina is ~80% of the threat of Strength and, ZOMG, you're a tank. You can afford to lose 20% of a second tier TPS stat to boost your EH.


I would just like to confirm that the red text is true and not a typo.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:35 am

Screamin wrote:
knaughty wrote::Soft-cap is 22 @ 80 in 4.0.1, back to 26 at 85..


I would just like to confirm that the red text is true and not a typo.

Yes, Expertise soft cap @ 80 is currently 22. Probably some bug due to rating changes. Source is EJ & TheckMegaThread - I have not confirmed it personally.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby edsdame » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:45 am

knaughty wrote:Yes, Expertise soft cap @ 80 is currently 22. Probably some bug due to rating changes. Source is EJ & TheckMegaThread - I have not confirmed it personally.


What do you think, is it worth to reforge according that cap? I currently need some more block, it would be cool to reforge expertise instead of dodge.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:04 am

edsdame wrote:
knaughty wrote:Yes, Expertise soft cap @ 80 is currently 22. Probably some bug due to rating changes. Source is EJ & TheckMegaThread - I have not confirmed it personally.


What do you think, is it worth to reforge according that cap? I currently need some more block, it would be cool to reforge expertise instead of dodge.

Down to 22? Certainly for H-ICC.

For Halion-hard, I was running close to hard-cap to try and reduce parry-haste.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:40 am

Parry haste still exists? Thought they said they were removing it.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby benebarba » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:53 am

OK, maybe I'm just too noob for these basics (I'm still doing Heroic 5-mans, and prior to 4.0.1 it seemed my GS wasn't really high enough for PUG raids so I never got into any)... but I'll ask none the less: before 4.0.1, it was mandatory for Heroics to be def-capped and hit cap and to pile on the stam. Now we become crit immune from talents, and I am still hit capped. Any thoughts on how one should prioritize dodge/parry/block(mastery) until you get to a gear level where you have enough stats to move around that you can block-cap? Or do we just press on and hope that the crit-immunity and whatever DR/avoidance we have is good enough for the healers to keep up?

(if it helps to see where I am at, here's my wowarmoury link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... =Benebarba )

or is there a better place to be asking this?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:26 pm

knaughty wrote:
Screamin wrote:
knaughty wrote::Soft-cap is 22 @ 80 in 4.0.1, back to 26 at 85..


I would just like to confirm that the red text is true and not a typo.

Yes, Expertise soft cap @ 80 is currently 22. Probably some bug due to rating changes. Source is EJ & TheckMegaThread - I have not confirmed it personally.


It's probably a bug indeed, seeing as the ingame character sheet still seems to give me 0.25% to be dodge at 25 expertise.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:09 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Parry haste still exists? Thought they said they were removing it.

It existed in 3.3, which is when I was working on Halion hard.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Awyndel » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:02 am

Did they remove parry haste entirely from the game ( players or mobs ) ? Or are they just going to be more thorough with turning it off this time around?

I also read something about parry now increasing the damage of the next blow, instead of hasting it. Not sure if is true though.

An another note, do we know how this behaviour applies to halion? I just went there with as much expertise as I could get last night, being pretty damned scared of the rng.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:07 am

Sorry, I don't know what the status of parry haste is.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Doxa » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:07 pm

Paladin Tanking Rotation video updated for 4.0.1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYViuZKixe0
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:21 am

Doxa wrote:Paladin Tanking Rotation video updated for 4.0.1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYViuZKixe0

Nice. I'll stick it in the links section tomorrow.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:37 am

Doxa wrote:Paladin Tanking Rotation video updated for 4.0.1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYViuZKixe0


I don't mean to be overly critical, because I think the video is excellent, but there were two "typos" ("speakos?"):

1:31 - "Utilizing Shield of the Righteous" should be "Holy Shield"
3:10 - "First move I'm going to use is Holy Shield" should be "Avenger's Shield"

That said, you were mousing over the correct icon in both cases, so I doubt it's worth re-recording the audio to fix them.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby econ21 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:17 am

Following on from the question of what blessing to use, you might want to link to one of the resources on comprehensive links to buffs and debuffs linked in this thread:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

Aside from druid's duffs overlapping with kings, there are also some class buffs that overlap with might. It's a little more than the paladin basics - most useful to a raid leader - but very useful reference material nonetheless.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Dilvish » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:18 am

A quick note on Grand Crusader. I finally respeced into it yesterday and ran some aoe intensive raid dungeon and raid environments and the difference was night and day for me. I am a huge grand crusader fan now. After working hard to make sure the recommended 939 basic rotation is second nature I am now making sure I integrate the benefits of GC into the single target threat environment as well. Thanks again for all of this help! :D
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Jenkz » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:50 pm

Q: 81+: What if I don't have 3 Holy Power?
A: Bad planning on your part doesn't constitute and emergency on my part.


Not sure when it goes live but this should be updated to say "pop DP for 3 holy power"
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:24 pm

Jenkz wrote:
Q: 81+: What if I don't have 3 Holy Power?
A: Bad planning on your part doesn't constitute and emergency on my part.


Not sure when it goes live but this should be updated to say "pop DP for 3 holy power"


Will do once the change is live on Beta.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Palisade » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:39 pm

knaughty wrote:
Jenkz wrote:
Q: 81+: What if I don't have 3 Holy Power?
A: Bad planning on your part doesn't constitute and emergency on my part.


Not sure when it goes live but this should be updated to say "pop DP for 3 holy power"


Will do once the change is live on Beta.


Does this mean Divine Protection? Or something else?
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Chicken » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:47 pm

Palisade wrote:
knaughty wrote:
Jenkz wrote:Not sure when it goes live but this should be updated to say "pop DP for 3 holy power"


Will do once the change is live on Beta.


Does this mean Divine Protection? Or something else?
Divine Plea, Ghostcrawler mentioned at Blizzcon they have plans to make it give 3 Holy Power when used.
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