4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:01 pm

theckhd wrote:<lots of new info and feedback>.


Expect an update later today related to GrC. I've reinstated CS as the single-target HoPo generator.

@econ21: What Arcand said, but...
econ21 wrote:I think the talents section could be a little more nuanced

First post wrote:The FAQ also doesn't present the subtleties - just the "standard answer". There are no provisos or subtly nuanced examples of edge cases.

I will be adjusting the GrC guidance. I'll start with You can just ignore the whole talent if you want but I will give some basic advice on how to use it if you take it.
econ21 wrote:The optimal decision is likely to be situational - what content are you running and what talents are good for that?

The philosophy section makes it pretty clear that the guide is aimed at "hard-mode raid-boss tanking".

That said (to use an audio-processing analogy) it can be difficult to turn the sass & sarcasm filter up to 11 without getting nasty distortion. I do review the content and tone regularly.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby towelliee » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:28 pm

Whatever Knaughty don't listen to em curse and call it crap baby give us your true feelings!
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Awyndel » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:36 pm

The guide was fine for something wiped up on day one wich you had to read 5 mins before a raid.

New information means the guide gets updated. It's no biggie.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby econ21 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:41 am

knaughty wrote: The philosophy section makes it pretty clear that the guide is aimed at "hard-mode raid-boss tanking".


I missed that, but it seems a curious orientation for a "basics" FAQ. How many tankadins are tanking hard-mode raid bosses and don't know the basics? I would have thought that the readership for such a FAQ are (a) new tanks who have not tanked anything; and (b) upwardly mobile tanks who want to start raiding.

Now for the transition to 4.01 and especially Cataclysm, I admit most of us don't know the basics - we are learning by doing. But in the next few months, I don't think this site's focus is going to be on hard-mode raids. It will be on levelling, heroics and then normal mode raids. Blizzard haven't even released any Cataclysm raids on the beta yet.

To make hard mode raid boss tanking the focus of the "basics training" sub-forum seems odd.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Arcand » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:51 am

econ21 wrote:To make hard mode raid boss tanking the focus of the "basics training" sub-forum seems odd.


Really does.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Calleana » Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:56 pm

I think as stated that this guide is about where we are now, not Cataclysm that will come in Dec. Most people looking for a guide to patch 4.01 are probably still raiding meaning pugging, doing normals or doing hard modes. By aiming the guide at those at the upper end Knaughty is trying to encourage us to be better yet still making it accessible for those who don't know much about the changes.

This is always the place I start it introduces the areas of contention I.e. In this patch GCr, glyphing AS, but gives me enough info to start learning for myself & pratcising new rotations & abilities.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:39 pm

Calleana wrote:I think as stated that this guide is about where we are now, not Cataclysm that will come in Dec. Most people looking for a guide to patch 4.01 are probably still raiding meaning pugging, doing normals or doing hard modes. By aiming the guide at those at the upper end Knaughty is trying to encourage us to be better yet still making it accessible for those who don't know much about the changes.


The current "target market", for want of a better word, is people that were already tanking ICC the week before 4.0.1 dropped - especially the version I scribbled together while the patch was being installed on the servers - it was designed to let people tank ICC again.

By the time we hit December, it will also be designed to support people re-rolling, but my expectation is that there are very few people switching to tanking this week.

There's also a general theme to how I write my guides: They don't cover stuff so easy that it barely counts as content. Anyone with half an ounce of dedication at this point of the expansion is wearing full 251+ epics. Given gear that good, you should be trying ICC-hard-modes. From my perspective, the first 5-6 hard-modes in ICC are the current "beginner content" - that's what a lot of PUGs are doing.

This will change for level 85. If they get heroics right, and I'm doing them early enough to provide useful advice, stuff as hard as the TBC heroics would end up deserving significant guidance for a beginner tank - I still remember Hellfire Citadel Heroics, especially the timed one....
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:42 pm

Arcand wrote:
econ21 wrote:To make hard mode raid boss tanking the focus of the "basics training" sub-forum seems odd.


Really does.


Short version of my post above: IMO, the first six hard modes in ICC-25 are the current beginner content.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby steadypal » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:01 pm

doing a little work on the dummy looks like hotr is still better than CS, and with vengeance the gap will get even wider, so not sure if the cs buff is live or what
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Viktorfrank » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:39 pm

So I've been trying to make some macro's for our single target 9's and our AE targets 9's.

Here is what I got so far:

Single: (CS) not macro'd // Single 9's "/castsequence reset=combat Judgement, Avenger's Shield, Holy Wrath, Shield of the Righteous" now changed to /castsequence reset=combat Judgement, Holy Wrath, Shield of the Righteous, Avenger's Shield, Judgement, Consecration, Shield of the Righteous

Issues: I would like to code it in the macro to cast AS over HW if it is off CD and more importantly for Grand Crusader when they fix it. Let me know if you know how to do this.

AE: (HoTR) not macro'd // AE 9's "/castsequence reset=combat Consecration, Holy Wrath, Avenger's Shield"

Updated and now moved to the proper forum location: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p617058

Feel free to comment now! :)

Issues: Thinking about putting WoG in the last part. Also I am wondering where Judgement would fit in here even if it does.

Just thought I would put this up and see what people think
Last edited by Viktorfrank on Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Mozen » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:16 pm

theckhd wrote:Some notes and observations from the last day or so:
However, unglyphing Avenger's Shield and made an amazing difference, and the night was smooth sailing from that point on.

That also means that for AoE tanking, Grand Crusader clocks in at about 11.awesome on a scale of 1 to 10. I frequently pulled a pack and got a GC proc within the first two Hammers, which solidified aggro and meant that threat was completely fine on that pack.


I'd like to emphasize this. Been running heroics all day and Grand Crusader is simply awesome. The proc rate is very satisfying, and in awkward packs with spread out casters, that proc can quickly bring the stray caster in. Having the default AS not daze mobs is also a big plus, so don't glyph that back in.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby SaroDarksbane » Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:37 pm

Great guide, thanks a bunch. One possible nitpick:
Q: Anything else?
A: Lose the +Armour pieces, especially trinkets. They mostly suck now.

If I understand the issue, there was a problem with +Armor not showing on certain items? If so, I believe this has been fixed. I know my Glyph of Indomitability still displays its pre-patch 1792 armor, as do (apparently) many other items.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby xstrykr » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:19 am

SaroDarksbane wrote:Great guide, thanks a bunch. One possible nitpick:
Q: Anything else?
A: Lose the +Armour pieces, especially trinkets. They mostly suck now.

If I understand the issue, there was a problem with +Armor not showing on certain items? If so, I believe this has been fixed. I know my Glyph of Indomitability still displays its pre-patch 1792 armor, as do (apparently) many other items.

No, the +Armor items that (I think) he's referring to are pieces with GREEN armor, i.e. T10 Hands/Chest set pieces. The bonus armor on them have been decreased pretty significantly (almost 50% what they were pre-patch).

Jewelry has been affected too(see Bile-Encrusted Medallion - 192 bonus armor, used to have ~690 IIRC), but trinkets shouldn't be affected, as the bonus armor they provided technically wasn't a "bonus".

Still, a lot of the trinkets that provide armor were pretty subpar to begin with. Now with the armor DR curve having been changed, it's not the same bonus as it was before.
Last edited by xstrykr on Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby SaroDarksbane » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:24 am

xstrykr wrote:No, the +Armor items that he's referring to are pieces with GREEN armor

Understood on that count, but he specifically said "especially trinkets", so that's where I focused the nitpick.

but trinkets shouldn't be affected, as the bonus armor they provided technically wasn't a "bonus".

That reasoning seems suspect, since jewelry (like trinkets) doesn't normally provide armor, and hence wouldn't technically be providing a "bonus" either.

Makes one wonder if the untouched trinkets will stay untouched . . .

EDIT:

Now with the armor DR curve having been changed, it's not the same bonus as it was before.

Have they actually implemented the armor/damage reduction changes already? I know in Cata they were planning on tuning plate down to be closer to the other armors, but I don't see anything for it this patch (besides the +Armor item tweaks, of course).
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:40 am

SaroDarksbane wrote:Great guide, thanks a bunch. One possible nitpick:
Q: Anything else?
A: Lose the +Armour pieces, especially trinkets. They mostly suck now.

If I understand the issue, there was a problem with +Armor not showing on certain items? If so, I believe this has been fixed.

When I checked my trinkets the night the patch dropped that had no armour displayed - I haven't checked since. Mostly because I trinket double-stam when tanking, or DPS trinkets when lol-tanking.

I'll have another look and possibly update. WTB more time in-game.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Chicken » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:07 am

knaughty wrote:
SaroDarksbane wrote:Great guide, thanks a bunch. One possible nitpick:
Q: Anything else?
A: Lose the +Armour pieces, especially trinkets. They mostly suck now.

If I understand the issue, there was a problem with +Armor not showing on certain items? If so, I believe this has been fixed.

When I checked my trinkets the night the patch dropped that had no armour displayed - I haven't checked since. Mostly because I trinket double-stam when tanking, or DPS trinkets when lol-tanking.

I'll have another look and possibly update. WTB more time in-game.
Make sure to not just look at the items themselves but also your armor as shown on your character screen. A lot of people report the trinket tooltips not showing the armor, while the character screen makes it clear they're still adding their armor.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:37 am

My trinkets regained their armor after one of the hotfix patches, so the trinkets should still be competitive.

As far as I'm aware, the armor on Pillars/Chest/Gloves/Belt/Cloak all still remain nerfed though. That doesn't make that armor useless, mind you, it just means that from an itemization perspective you're getting less than you used to.

If you compare to some of the 277 items now, the extra stamina you gain in going from 264 to 277 makes up for or exceeds the EH granted by the armor on the 264 armor pieces. And since you don't have to "pay" for it out of normal itemization, it also means you gain a little of a secondary stat (avoidance, hit, expertise, etc).

Also note that based on Khira's latest testing, we're using a different DR formula for armor mitigation now, which has "nerfed" the value of armor even further. His early estimates put it up to around 11.8 armor to 1 stamina in EH calculations, rather than the old 10:1.

If they restore a chunk of the armor to the non-trinket pieces, they might catch up. But as it stands now, if you have higher-ilvl heroic ICC items those are probably a better choice. I suspect this is intended though, and won't change.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Flex » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:50 am

The armor on my emblem cloak is still 715 or whatever, cloak armor wasn't changed it seems.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:53 am

Flex wrote:The armor on my emblem cloak is still 715 or whatever, cloak armor wasn't changed it seems.

If I recall correctly, they buffed the base armor on cloaks though, which is effectively the same thing as nerfing the bonus armor. The armor difference between my badge cloak and my 277 Royal Crimson is something like ~150 armor, which doesn't make up for the ~20+ stamina gain I get from the RC.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Awyndel » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:56 am

Yeah pretty much. The 277 stamina items now win from the 264 armor pieces. And I don't think that's bad considering they are a tier higher.

The 277 bonus armor pieces still remain competitive. I suspected armor being a little weaker, and carefully used 14:1 to compare those. I still like them.

The trinkets seem to lose some value. But I do think the procs on them are far from useless. And considering we have so much health, and little damage reduction atm, I like to keep them on.

Armor on gloves is still competitive too.

I'm trying out the block value gem as well, trading some stamina for mitigation and a chunk of avoidance. Giving mitigation a 20% bonus towards EH, and using a 2 avoidance for 1 stamina ratio, it comes out about equal to me. And health is just not what I am missing right now.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Palisade » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:23 am

knaughty wrote:
Arcand wrote:
econ21 wrote:To make hard mode raid boss tanking the focus of the "basics training" sub-forum seems odd.


Really does.


Short version of my post above: IMO, the first six hard modes in ICC-25 are the current beginner content.


Just wanted to add that this guide was perfect for me. Having missed the last 18 months of WoW and coming back in on 4oh, this was what I needed.
I've been a long time reader, and maintankadin has always seemed to me to be oriented at those who want to be "hard mode" progression tanks. We're in it to win it, as it were. This has always been a great resource to me, and I think this guide in particular was done well for the circumstances. I often refer my fellow tankadins to this site, no matter where they are at in their tanking career.

We all want to be the star quarter back. So we have to learn to play like one, and this guide does it.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:26 pm

Palisade wrote:
knaughty wrote:Short version of my post above: IMO, the first six hard modes in ICC-25 are the current beginner content.

Just wanted to add that this guide was perfect for me. Having missed the last 18 months of WoW and coming back in on 4oh, this was what I needed.

Awesome feedback - thanks tons!

It's great to know that I did hit the mark - it's hard to tell whether I'm over-estimating how easy ICC when I'm looking from the perspective of 12/12 hard modes.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby iambubbley » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:33 pm

For the "9" position of our rotation, where would Hammer of Wrath fit in? It currently hits like a truck (I think harder than AS, though I haven't compared with glyphed AS) and should definitely take priority over holy wrath. I'm curious if we should prioritize it over judgement or if the sacred duty proc for SotR from judgement is more important to try and proc.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby knaughty » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:26 pm

iambubbley wrote:For the "9" position of our rotation, where would Hammer of Wrath fit in? It currently hits like a truck (I think harder than AS, though I haven't compared with glyphed AS) and should definitely take priority over holy wrath. I'm curious if we should prioritize it over judgement or if the sacred duty proc for SotR from judgement is more important to try and proc.

Last time I checked Theck's thread the results weren't in.

If it's hitting harder than AS, the answer would be "Every 9 where it's off CD" - you'd fill other 9s slots with AS > HW > Judge, moving Judge to the head of the queue if you're low on mana or JotJ is going to fall off.
Last edited by knaughty on Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics.

Postby Awyndel » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:52 pm

I've been having some trouble with my aoe rotation in dungeons. Not that agro is a problem atm. Everything sticks like glue, but that's prolly also coz I get grouped with lower geared ppl often.

However, I get stuck after a certain number of gcd's. Basicly I'm just using hotr for my 3, and hitting the hardest aoe 9 wich is off cd, using WoG on 3 holy power. On 3 targets I give AS prio, otherwise HW.

Would it be better to just substitute from the single target rotation? Hotr as the 3, concecrate/judgement as first 9, AS/HW as second 9, and WoG as 3rd?
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