4.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide (WIP)

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:40 am

Prettysweet wrote:ok just a question does Reckoning proc on boss fights? I thought it never really used to, if it does i will need to relook at my talent set up for 4.0

Yes, it does. It's been that way since BC at least. I can't vouch for classic.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide (WIP)

Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:57 pm

theckhd wrote:
Prettysweet wrote:ok just a question does Reckoning proc on boss fights? I thought it never really used to, if it does i will need to relook at my talent set up for 4.0

Yes, it does. It's been that way since BC at least. I can't vouch for classic.


Didn't it proc from crits in classic. Not recommended to get crit on bosses :P
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide (WIP)

Postby lythac » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:40 am

Gamingdevil wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Prettysweet wrote:ok just a question does Reckoning proc on boss fights? I thought it never really used to, if it does i will need to relook at my talent set up for 4.0

Yes, it does. It's been that way since BC at least. I can't vouch for classic.


Didn't it proc from crits in classic. Not recommended to get crit on bosses :P


Yes used to proc from crits. You could build up a stack of reckoning charges and unleash them all at once. 1816 charges if you like.

WoWWiki - Reckoning Bomb
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide (WIP)

Postby econ21 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:44 pm

Anyone got practical experience from the beta or PTR that would be useful here?

For example, anyone tried to tank Marrowgar trash or Halls of Reflection without Hallowed ground? And/or with Avenger Shield glyphed? I am a little nervous that the loss of seal of command may make getting aggro on trash difficult - although I guess we still have HW and HotR.

Also, how useful was Word of Glory at level 80? Did healer's risk running out of mana? Is it a survival ability - a self-heal that can be a lifesaver? Or is it eminently dispensible?

Given what theckhd has computed about threat and his points about mandatory survival talents, the above questions are the ones that still come to mind. My gut feeling is that, for a casual level 80 spec (farming 5 mans and running ICC normal), I can probably forgo the Word of Glory talents but should keep Hallowed Ground (and AS unglyphed). We will still be overgeared and still playing with the gogogo brigade.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide (WIP)

Postby obiwayne » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:48 pm

So with the patch hitting today I'm looking at different builds... I'm specifically looking for a general purpose dungeon/raid build as I want to avoid having to respec constantly (although it's really tempting to spec into Imp. HoJ for LK). I would think that Hallowed Ground is a must-have since it appears the intent is for Consecration to be used like a DK's Death and Decay - at the start of the pull to establish multi-target threat and periodically dropped to ensure threat stays.

I'm thinking a build like this for jack-of-all-trades tanking: http://wowtal.com/#k=-wxCEl8.a5o.paladin. Improving the range of Judgements seems like a must-have as well to ensure threat is maintained on casters who are out of range (at least until we can toss Shield to bring them closer) and Grand Crusader's refreshing of AS seems to be really good for AOE tanking as its an extra multi-mob attack.

What are all your thoughts on this?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:07 pm

Guide is updated for 4.0.1. I still need to know exactly how the HoSalv glyph works and whether they fixed the PotI bug.

Feedback/corrections/suggestions appreciated.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Odyssasthai » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:23 pm

Thanks Theck, great guide as always. The mandatory/optional breakdowns are invaluable and the DPS graph is the terrific; really puts into perspective how little gain we gain from HG and AotL in their current forms. I hope use of WoG is kept as a viable option in cat boss fights, giving some solid value to those talents.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:26 pm

I'm still not 100% sold on how useful or necessary 30 yard judgements will be, especially with AS having a shorter CD now. I'll usually be putting one point in it to bring it to 20, but if I'm not intending to go further down ret I very much doubt I'll be putting that second point in there. Likewise, PoJ was a great place to drop points on the way to Crusade in wrath, but I doubt I'll be running speccing into it by default, only if an encounter really promotes an extra 8% run speed.

I know looking at Wrath encounters isn't particularly helpful to evaluate a Cata talent build, but just trying to think of a situation in Wrath where a 20 yard judge wouldn't have been sufficient, I'm struggling to find one. Valithria/Lady D seem to be the main ones in ICC, but AS would be up almost each time with the 15 second CD, and in the next GCD you'd be in judgement range, so not really compelling. Getting the shadow orbs while tanking Keleseth would be a reasonable example I suppose.

Rule of Law, while marginally behind SotP in pure TPS terms, does provide the same amount of crit to your WoG, so might be worth mentioning it as an option for a balanced type spec, where you're buffing your WoG to some extent but without sacrificing too much threat.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:03 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Rule of Law, while marginally behind SotP in pure TPS terms, does provide the same amount of crit to your WoG, so might be worth mentioning it as an option for a balanced type spec, where you're buffing your WoG to some extent but without sacrificing too much threat.


It will be... when I update the guide for level 85. At level 80 you can't get Rule of Law.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:07 pm

Sure, but in your talent breakdown you don't mention that it buffs WoG, just the damaging abilities. Ofc someone could just mouseover the link and see it for themselves.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Satat » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:31 pm

How important is it going to be to be blocked capped... I just reforged all my dodge/parry whatever stat was highest to Block and was making sure this was the right thing to do. Now sitting at 102.85% Avoidance while lowering my dodge by about 3% and parry by about 2%.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:04 am

From my experience on the ptr, the reason you wanted to specc consecration wasnt for the added bonusdmg, but for the manareduce. Consecration in its current form is more expencive than pre 4.0, and since Spiritual attunement is gone, you have no other way to get your mana back than with judgement/block (and 2% per block/dodge/parry isnt a whole lot with a manapool of 5k)
Maybe its gonna be like SA was before, one point is nessecary, the second point wont really do much since one might be enough to keep your mana up.


Satat wrote:Now sitting at 102.85% Avoidance while lowering my dodge by about 3% and parry by about 2%.

Block is still NOT avoidance...
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:14 am

Thanks for this guide, Theckhd - it answers a lot of questions, especially about single target threat issues.

However, everytime I contemplate a L80 build, I seem to change my previous plans. I guess this means that Blizzard did a good job with the talent tree - of giving me, at least, a real choice.

I'm very reluctant to give up Hallowed Ground and Grand Crusader, as they beef up two of our "signature" abilities and because I think they will be more useful in AOE situations than might be thought from the graph of single target dps. Assessing AS and Consecration from a single target point of view seems rather like measuring the running speed of a sea lion. I'd be interested to see what the graph looks like when considering three targets rather than one. And maybe considering a "with consecration" simulation for Hallowed Ground against a "without consecration" one for without those talents. As I can't see anyone being able to gogogo through a Wotlk 5 man using consecration often without the Hallowed Ground talents. I fear Hallowed Ground may still be weak, but would like to see the numbers.

My current thinking is to forgo the WoG talents to make room for the above and 5 points in ret. I think WoG will come into play more in Cataclysm when mobs hit harder, than when outgearing 5-mans and ICC normal (I don't do heroic raids).
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Satat » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:41 am

I was more concerned with the ability to at least always block 30% of incoming damage. Also I am still getting full blocks I was under the assumption this wouldnt happen with this patch. Any idea what is going on?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby mclem » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:53 am

I mentioned it in the tanking rotation thread, but it belongs here a bit more:

It's struck me that you only need 2 points in SotT to get AS's CD down to a level (18s) where you ought to be able to mix it in to every other 3-HP chain reliably. Is there any optional talent in the prot tree that proves better TPS than the 2:20 -> 2:00 CD on AW change? The thought has crossed my mind that, given most fight lengths are in the 5/6 minute range, you'd be looking at three wings periods in each fight whether or not you had that third point.

I'm speaking strictly from a levelling point of view, I appreciate that GAnK CD reduction at 85 will be a huge boost.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:15 am

Rhiannon wrote:Sure, but in your talent breakdown you don't mention that it buffs WoG, just the damaging abilities. Ofc someone could just mouseover the link and see it for themselves.

Oh. Oops. I've added a sentence to reflect that.

econ21 wrote:I'm very reluctant to give up Hallowed Ground and Grand Crusader, as they beef up two of our "signature" abilities and because I think they will be more useful in AOE situations than might be thought from the graph of single target dps. Assessing AS and Consecration from a single target point of view seems rather like measuring the running speed of a sea lion. I'd be interested to see what the graph looks like when considering three targets rather than one. And maybe considering a "with consecration" simulation for Hallowed Ground against a "without consecration" one for without those talents. As I can't see anyone being able to gogogo through a Wotlk 5 man using consecration often without the Hallowed Ground talents. I fear Hallowed Ground may still be weak, but would like to see the numbers.

My current thinking is to forgo the WoG talents to make room for the above and 5 points in ret. I think WoG will come into play more in Cataclysm when mobs hit harder, than when outgearing 5-mans and ICC normal (I don't do heroic raids).


For AoE situations, Grand Crusader (with UNGLYPHED Avenger's Shield) and Hallowed Ground will both be decent DPS increases, and Hallowed Ground's mana reduction may become important for being able to keep casting anything else. If all you'll be doing is Herioc dungeons, then dropping the WoG talents to pick up HG is a reasonable choice. I'll try and emphasize this more in the guide.

That said, keep in mind that WoG is currently our only aoe threat finisher, so you might be casting it more than you think in heroics.

mclem wrote:It's struck me that you only need 2 points in SotT to get AS's CD down to a level (18s) where you ought to be able to mix it in to every other 3-HP chain reliably. Is there any optional talent in the prot tree that proves better TPS than the 2:20 -> 2:00 CD on AW change? The thought has crossed my mind that, given most fight lengths are in the 5/6 minute range, you'd be looking at three wings periods in each fight whether or not you had that third point.

I'm speaking strictly from a levelling point of view, I appreciate that GAnK CD reduction at 85 will be a huge boost.


At 80, it's certainly possible to drop one point out of SotT and still maintain AS. Whether the 20-second reduction of AW's cooldown is a bigger DPS increase than other threat talents is tough to say, if you're pulling 8k dps then that talent point should be roughly 130 DPS (20% of 8k is 1.6k, the talent point increases AW uptime from 25% to 33%, 1600*(0.333-0.25)=133). That puts it behind SD and WotL, but ahead of everything else. However, it also requires that you're diligent about popping wings on cooldown, and as you said, it doesn't take into account discretization (if you get 3 AW casts off in a fight either way, it's gained you 0 dps).

I'm not sure how much I want to dwell on this topic in the guide. It's bordering on what I'd consider an "advanced topic." I might add a note that "At 80, you really only need 2 points in this because GAnK is irrelevant, so feel free to move that point somewhere more useful until 85."
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:38 am

theckhd wrote:That said, keep in mind that WoG is currently our only aoe threat finisher, so you might be casting it more than you think in heroics.


Thanks, Theckhd. I had assumed I would just be whacking the skull with 3HPo SoR as the finisher. Although we talk of AOE in heroics, the typical encounter tends to be more 3-4 mobs - which, with present dps, quickly slides into single target. :lol: However, even with 3-4 mobs, I think GrC and HD would look significantly better. (I presently glyph AS but don't think I will from now on.)

I guess you could say heroics are so easy, they don't matter and there is some truth in that. However, new tanks can struggle with threat competing with uber dps and have an awful experience because of it(insults, group kicks etc). And in a few situations - like HoR or the Bran event in HoS - keeping threat on adds can be a challenge. I've found my warrior alt struggles more on those than my pre-4.0 pally, due to the absence of consecration and seal of command. After 4.0, I'll be interested to see how my pally does.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:56 am

For all those that debate what glyphs to use in their all-round spec (mainly wether to glyph AS or not) keep in mind that glyphs are now learnable and you can just switch them when the need arises.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Tankforyou » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:34 am

First off THANK YOU for all the work you do.
You are really a defacto member of our guild Mayhem for all
helped with gleemed from your guides...

1) If I am doing your standard build and using the 9-3-9 rotation....
what do I do if I have only 2 holy power and it's time to use shield of the righteous?
Say Crusader strike missed....maybe my rotation got off balance or I missed clicked.

2) Also, it seems the built in power aura track when Grand Crusader procs but not holy power...anyone know a way to track holy power? add on?

3)Also, my healers are telling me I'm more "squisshy" on multi mob tanking situations... say 4 packs in a 5 man heroic. Is this due to the block change? Are other tankadins having the same issues?

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Satat » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:45 am

Tankforyou wrote:3)Also, my healers are telling me I'm more "squisshy" on multi mob tanking situations... say 4 packs in a 5 man heroic. Is this due to the block change? Are other tankadins having the same issues?


I am actually getting the opposite reaction from my healers. Especially with the ICC dodge nerf removed. Threat on the other hand is about 100x harder to keep.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:15 am

Tankforyou wrote:First off THANK YOU for all the work you do.
You are really a defacto member of our guild Mayhem for all
helped with gleemed from your guides...

1) If I am doing your standard build and using the 9-3-9 rotation....
what do I do if I have only 2 holy power and it's time to use shield of the righteous?
Say Crusader strike missed....maybe my rotation got off balance or I missed clicked.


Crusader strike still generates holy power when it misses. If you misclicked or somehow didn't cast it, you're probably better off waiting another 3 seconds for 3 Holy Power. Fill the gaps with whatever you can (Consecrate, extra AS procs from Grand Crusader, whatever).

Tankforyou wrote:2) Also, it seems the built in power aura track when Grand Crusader procs but not holy power...anyone know a way to track holy power? add on?

Most unit frames will track this, as can the Power Auras addon.

Tankforyou wrote:3)Also, my healers are telling me I'm more "squisshy" on multi mob tanking situations... say 4 packs in a 5 man heroic. Is this due to the block change? Are other tankadins having the same issues?

Possibly. Before you might be blocking 2k of a 3-4k hit (in heroics). Now you'll be blocking only 1-1.2k of that, so you should take a little more damage. On the other hand, if you've reforged a lot of your avoidance into mastery, you should be blocking more of the incoming attacks.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Phonic » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:42 am

I didn't get to raid last night since many of our core had problems patching, so I did some test dummying and a couple of heroics. On the dummy I'm running bone dry on mana even without using consecration. This lead me to put in Ascetic Crusader. That definitely helped.

On heroics, I couldn't tell much since things were still dying pretty quick. I pretty much used HOTR rather than CS for everything. So thinking about actually getting hallowed ground since increased range on judgement is nice, but not really necessary. I still find if I start with AS and Judge while running to the mob to HotR, it kinda screws up the 939.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Bladesong » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:01 pm

I tested out the rotation on some of the 83 elites outside of Icecrown and only dropped low on mana if I used more than one consecrate (I have one point in Hallowed Ground). My combined dodge/block is about 79% after reforging, so 3/4 of incoming mob attacks are generating mana through Sanctuary. I imagine that running a current heroic with multiple mobs attacking you will generate more than enough mana and hitting a dummy will leave you a short.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Harrimad » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:33 pm

I have tried some raiding this evening with the new spec. I found that threat seemed to be a problem. Anyone else having this problem?

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:26 pm

One or 2 classes can dish out an amazing ammount of TPS atm. But other than that i found our threat to be more than fine.
Esp since i couldnt see my holypower and failed with that most of the time.
MD didnt work for us really, and tricks were "changed" a bit aswell, but you can start with them, and after that it was pretty fine.
Druids had nice tps tho :P
WoG was pretty useless as expected imo.

Trash or multitargets, is NOT as "faceroll" as it was before.
Blizzards intent is that your aoeabilities should keep the adds on you instead of the healers, but the dpsers SHOULD be dpsing YOUR target, if they target something your not, you are not suppose to be able to keep threat.
So you shouldnt feel to bad if everything isnt sticking on you as glue. Single target tho, should be fine in the majority of the cases, while a few classes might need to watch omen a bit more.
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