Recent Threat Issues

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Recent Threat Issues

Postby ohnoesitsBRAD » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:49 am

Our Rogue has been out of the country for the last 2 weeks and, let's just say, he's been missed. Without him, I've been having trouble gaining and sustaining a comfortable threat lead over our DPS (which aren't even incredibly hard-hitters to begin with; hovering around 8-10k on stand-still fights). And I'm worried that Tricks has been masking an issue that I've had all along with threat (or maybe I'm just feeling especially inadequate with the recent IT buff that our DK received). As DPS gear improves, I only see this becoming more of an issue.

Here is my character sheet: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &cn=Aelyse

I know that the miracle-workers here can't do much without logs. Here is a link to our WoL calendar: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/14862/ By all means, please pick and choose the fights that you think will give you the most information. Although, I'll admit beforehand. There are a couple wipes in there where I forgot Righteous Fury (ooooops!)

A couple of notes: We raid 10s (and as such do not have access to multiple tricks and MDs). I'm a clicker (guilty) and if this is really a big deal then I would ask for ways to change this (as I currently move with W-forward, rotating the camera with right-click to turn, and A or D while holding right-click to strafe; reaching up to the number keys while moving becomes a real hassle this way). I don't use a 69 macro and instead click each ability manually. On the pull, I generally pop AW, HoR, AS, Judge, HotR, 696969696.

My DPS have been good about letting me get a lead lately, but throughout the fight I'm always keeping my eye on Omen and the lead doesn't seem to last very long. The biggest culprits are generally the Mage (Griddlecakes), the Warriors (Jooger and Skeezster) and occasionally the boomkin (Hairdu). From what I've read, threat should never really be an issue for us Paladins and, thinking back to Ulduar and ToC, I can't really remember it ever being an issue until ICC (even when we had no hit gear ala T9). People have quoted TPS numbers of 8-12k (which is something I only see with tricks and MDs).

If we can't find anything that I'm doing blatantly wrong, then does anyone have any good tips? Or maybe you've had a similar problem to what I'm experiencing? Also, I do have access to the 245 STR Libram and a slow one-hander (Bloodvenom Blade), if you guys think that these would make/break me.

Unlike many of those that post on the boards looking for "help", I am actually very open to change. I want to do what is OPTIMAL for my raid group and not settle for "oh well it works fine the way I already do it" (case in point, if you view my post history, in the past I argued vehemently that the pally set bonuses were garbage and I've since switched to the 2-set after taking to heart the opinions of those more experienced than myself). Any and all constructive criticism will be taken seriously, so please, please give your input.
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Re: Recent Threat Issues

Postby lythac » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:00 am

I decided to look at one of your Festergut reports due to the low movement, where event type is Spell cast and source is Aelyse.

This log - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hx2u ... 534&e=7823
This query - {"eventTypes": [6], "sourceNames": ["Aelyse"]}

The code box below is not the whole fight but shows an issue -

Code: Select all
[21:43:38.095]   0.00   JoW   9
[21:43:39.667]   1.57   HotR   6
[21:43:41.288]   1.62   Cons   9
[21:43:42.970]   1.68   ShoR   6
[21:43:44.657]   1.69   HS   9
[21:43:46.811]   2.15   HotR   6
[21:43:48.448]   1.64   JoW   9
[21:43:50.102]   1.65   ShoR   6
[21:43:51.708]   1.61   Cons   9
[21:43:53.424]   1.72   HotR   6
[21:43:55.093]   1.67   HS   9
[21:43:56.679]   1.59   ShoR   6
[21:43:58.316]   1.64   JoW   9
[21:44:00.168]   1.85   HotR   6
[21:44:04.010]   3.84   Cons   9
[21:44:05.797]   1.79   ShoR   6
[21:44:07.387]   1.59   JoW   9
[21:44:09.761]   2.37   HotR   6
[21:44:15.582]   5.82   --HoR--   
[21:44:15.950]   0.37   --AS--   
[21:44:17.752]   1.80   HotR   6
[21:44:19.188]   1.44   Cons   9
[21:44:20.909]   1.72   ShoR   6
[21:44:22.300]   1.39   HS   9
[21:44:23.998]   1.70   HotR   6
[21:44:25.543]   1.55   JoW   9
[21:44:27.074]   1.53   ShoR   6
[21:44:28.774]   1.70   Cons   9
[21:44:30.380]   1.61   HotR   6
[21:44:32.082]   1.70   HS   9
[21:44:33.749]   1.67   ShoR   6
[21:44:35.219]   1.47   JoW   9
[21:44:36.658]   1.44   HotR   6


You're doing the right rotation, just not fast enough which may be a side effect to clicking. The Consecration that took 3.84 seconds to cast was you moving from behind the boss to the front, with you unable to click?

The casts leading up to that Consecration on average were spaced 1.7 seconds apart.

Threat problems will be more increased on movement sensitive fights based on your choice of movement.
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Re: Recent Threat Issues

Postby ohnoesitsBRAD » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:07 am

That seems to be directly before a tank swap (I see an HoR and AS just a couple abilities down the list). This is Heroic that we're talking about right? When I'm not the current tank, I'm dropping Righteous Fury and getting behind Festergut. As a melee DPS, we're running from the far right side of his right leg to the far left side of his left leg to avoid malleable goo. Could it be possible the slow consecrate cast above is during one of those times when I am not tanking the boss and running from side to side to avoid goo, rather than a slow cast while tanking?

Is it possible to get my time between ability casts more in-line with the GCD? Obviously, the closer to 1.5sec the better. Is 1.7sec a bad thing?
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Re: Recent Threat Issues

Postby Vorianloken » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:17 am

First off, my suggestion would be to definitely match those 9-12 stam bonuses and give a thought to matching the 6 stam ones too. It will allow you to pick up some more hit/exp for threat. With the 15% buff to the instance, it is ridiculously easy to meet the EH minimum for almost any of the fights, especially with your current gear.

Also, use the 245 str libram for even more threat.

I'm not really good at reading logs but it seems that most of your attacks that don't land are parried attacks.
- On Marrowgar its your melee and Blood Corruption.
- On Deathwhisper its your Blood Corruption.
- On DBS its your melee and BC again with them also just plain missing.
- Repeat for festergut. There are some "Re" misses and I'm not familiar with the acronym.
- Repeat for PP, Blood council, Queen, sindragosa (lots of dodges, misses, parries) here.
Doesn't look like anything that more hit/expertise can't solve although I could be wrong.

For your DPS'rs.

- Is it possible for your boomkin to go full 2/2 in Nature's Reach for even more threat reduction?
- Are you and Furtive using Hand of Salvation on the DPS'rs frequently?
[EDIT] - Warrior do not have any threat reduction I am aware so they are largely unfortunate there :) And these two would be the excellent targets for Salv when available and when they are eating your threat lead.

And /wave @ another clicker :)

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I usually use the hotkeys for the left half of the actual action bars [1-4, S1-4, SS-A; 12 keys total] and click the rest of the buttons. My movement buttons are all default and on fights like marrowgar I just use Q and E to sidestep. /shrug

Are there any threat pieces of gear you can use for your farm fights? Also, any pieces of threat gear you could use on some of the harder fights without sacrificing the EH minimums?

Another thing I would suggest is to pick up either of the following weapons and get them enchanted with 110 AP or berserking and use them for the fights:

- Gutbuster off Festergut10.
- Bloodvenom Blade off Saurfang25.
- Frost Giant's Cleave off Gunship10.
- Soulbreaker off Blood Council10.

I use Bloodvenom Blade with berserking on every single fight, bar PutPut and Princes. However my progression is no where near as yours. Only 7/12 in 10-man with putput/queen/frost up and haven't even done putput or princes or frost on 25. So far, I don't have logs to back this up but, I have not had any survivability issues on fights like Marrowgar, Saurfang, Festergut on 25. But to each his own, getting 110AP is still a solid choice of an enchant.
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Re: Recent Threat Issues

Postby Vorianloken » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:22 am

ohnoesitsBRAD wrote:That seems to be directly before a tank swap (I see an HoR and AS just a couple abilities down the list). This is Heroic that we're talking about right? When I'm not the current tank, I'm dropping Righteous Fury and getting behind Festergut. As a melee DPS, we're running from the far right side of his right leg to the far left side of his left leg to avoid malleable goo. Could it be possible the slow consecrate cast above is during one of those times when I am not tanking the boss and running from side to side to avoid goo, rather than a slow cast while tanking?

Is it possible to get my time between ability casts more in-line with the GCD? Obviously, the closer to 1.5sec the better. Is 1.7sec a bad thing?

Not an expert on this but I doubt you can get the lower times without a lot of haste. Basically just using hotkeys more and less clicking?
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Re: Recent Threat Issues

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:43 am

Vorianloken wrote:
ohnoesitsBRAD wrote:Is it possible to get my time between ability casts more in-line with the GCD? Obviously, the closer to 1.5sec the better. Is 1.7sec a bad thing?

Not an expert on this but I doubt you can get the lower times without a lot of haste. Basically just using hotkeys more and less clicking?

Haste won't fix the issue there, I suspect it's latency causing the 200ms delay. The only way to fix that is to pre-cast within the latency window. A cast bar addon like Quartz can help with that for casters, but since all of our stuff is instant cast it's not as helpful. There might be a similar addon that does it for the gcd timer (quartz has a GCD "spike" but I don't think you can put the red latency region on that).

I'm not sure how the pros do movement, but I use ESDF (Forward, Left Strafe, Backpedal, Right Strafe) to move and mouse (right click) to turn. I have A and G set up for "keyboard turning" because there are a few isolated cases where it's helpful, like circle-strafing (which you can do with the mouse, but it's a little more consistent with the keyboard). But I have most of my abilities bound to extra mouse buttons on my MX518, so I can keep up my rotation regardless of what my other fingers are doing.
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Re: Recent Threat Issues

Postby lythac » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:23 am

ohnoesitsBRAD wrote:That seems to be directly before a tank swap (I see an HoR and AS just a couple abilities down the list). This is Heroic that we're talking about right?


Yes it seems to be as you are moving into the tanking position rather than a slow cast when you are tanking. The way you are currently moving makes it impossible to cast it any sooner. Strafing through the boss from behind using left hand, pressing abilities also with your left hand and using your mouse to angle yourself correctly and swivel into position once in front would be the pro thing to do.

ohnoesitsBRAD wrote:Is it possible to get my time between ability casts more in-line with the GCD? Obviously, the closer to 1.5sec the better. Is 1.7sec a bad thing?


If you are clicking I suppose it is one click you do? With keybinds you can hammer the button when the GCD is nearly up which should result in a faster cast. There is also an addon that works with keybinds called Snowfallkeypress that activates the cast on key press, rather than release which can help sometimes.

I would play how you feel most comfortable, trying to squeeze out 2-3% more threat at the cost of spacial awareness is not worth it. As Vorianloken says its easy to exceed the EH minimum so swapping to libram is a decent option should you be missing your tricks.
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Re: Recent Threat Issues

Postby ohnoesitsBRAD » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:01 pm

Thanks for the replies, guys.

What I'm getting from this thus far is that any problem that I probably have is rather minor. Maybe I'm just feeling inadequate now that our DK can push higher TPS numbers with lower DPS numbers. I've since switched my strafe keys to A+D and my granny-turn keys to Q+E (since I've been strafing with the default A+D while holding the right-mouse down). Also, I may try clicking the next ability early and often, rather than a single click (which may often times end up being slow). On those fights where threat is an issue, going forward I'll be sure to swap to my 245 STR Libram + a dps one-hander.

Wish me luck this week on Heroic Putricide. No more Phase 3 wipes. ;_;
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Re: Recent Threat Issues

Postby Marblehead » Sat May 01, 2010 8:55 am

As a fellow clicker, I have a few tips for you.

1. You have to spam your abilities like you would do if you were using key binds. It's essential to transform your right index finger (if you're right-handed) into a lean mean spamming machine.

2. You must have the 69696 ability action bar buttons as close as possible to each other, followed closely by taunts and other often used abilities. This will limit mouse movement. Ideally, you should be moving the cursor between abilities in half a second and start spamming it.

3. Never use the mouse to move your character. The 6 directional buttons on the keyboard are your best friend. You can do all kinds of stunts with these buttons. Always use a combination of turn+strafe buttons along with forward/backward ones to position yourself. Using just a turning button to turn is the worst thing to do. For example, let's say that you're behind a boss and want to go in front of it. If you were moving with the mouse, you would run forward through the boss, jump midway and turn in the air. If you try to do this with the keyboard you loose a lot of time and there will be a time frame where you won't be able to use abilities cause the boss will be at your back. Instead, you can use the left strafe key with the right turn key and do a semicircle around the boss while you continue clicking abilities.

4. Have your camera at max distance with the command /console cameraDistanceMaxFactor 4 so you can see the majority of the room and don't need to use the mouse to turn the camera.

5. However, there are times that you will need to use the mouse for something other than clicking abilities (like targeting a specific mob out of a pack where tab-targeting would be a waste of time). For this reason, you should always have key binds for your abilities, with the most important of them close to the movement keys. Be ready to swap from a key-moving/mouse-casting style to a key-casting-moving/mouse-somethingelse style if the situation requires it, which will demand a lot higher concentration to perform, but for a really small time window.

I hope these will help.
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Re: Recent Threat Issues

Postby Meloree » Sat May 01, 2010 2:19 pm

ohnoesitsBRAD wrote:Thanks for the replies, guys.

What I'm getting from this thus far is that any problem that I probably have is rather minor.

Wish me luck this week on Heroic Putricide. No more Phase 3 wipes. ;_;


1.7s is a bit slow, and it could stand to be faster. Your overall ability usage, though, is very very low. For HotR and ShoR, you could have had 48 casts in 4:50, and had 37 HotR and 32 ShoR. That part of the rotation, on Festergut, should be nearly 100% efficient. By comparison, I had a very lazy Festergut kill this week, where I was not playing what I would consider to be at a high level and had 34 ShoR and 33 HotR casts out of a possible 37.

I looked at your BQL - where one assumes you have 40 seconds of time-off-boss, leading to 45 possible ShoR/HotR, and you had 29 ShoR and 31 HotR. By comparison, in our kill this week, I had 36 HotR, and 37 ShoR, out of a possible 40. Again, I consider this to be extremely poor play from myself, at ~90% efficiency, but your ability usage is much lower, at ~65% ability usage. So, yeah, I had an offnight - it's very possible to get your ability usage past 95% on a consistent basis, and it's something you should strive for.

I would suggest that your problem isn't minor at all, as you could very easily add ~30% threat from better overall ability usage. I didn't dig deeply enough into fight with less time-on-target/more tank movement to get a picture, but I would tend to assume that your overall ability usage on those fights is significantly lower, given that generally it's a problem to click well while moving.

If you are attached to clicking (and I don't recommend it, get used to hotkeys and you will improve as a player), take Marblehead's advice, and learn to be a spam-clicking machine. Whether you want to continue to click, or learn to hotkey is up to you, but you probably want to spend some time at the practice dummies improving your rotation.

Hopefully this post doesn't sound too harsh - it's not intended that way, but I've run out of time to edit. I can be blunt sometimes, and I do want to stress that your rotation has potentially very serious problems. Either way, if you want me to look more deeply at the logs sometime when I'm not in a rush, just PM me, I'd be happy to help.

Good luck this week on Heroic Putricide.
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