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Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

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Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

Postby Hearthvaderr » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:54 pm

I hear this is a good idea for threat all the time. It seems to make sense at the surface, DPS toons use DPS weapons -> DPS do more damage than tanks -> Tank with DPS weapon would do more damage. But I've always wondered why. It can't be seal damage, a tank using either SoComm or 5-stack SoCorr/V that does x% of their melee damage would work out to doing the same amount of holy damage, whether the damage was in 1.5 or 2.6 second intervals. Hammer of the Righteous is the same way, it deals damage based off the weapon's DPS, not top end damage.


Anyone care to explain why everyone says to get a slow 1h DPS weapon for threat?
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Re: Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

Postby RedAces » Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:48 pm

hey

the Difference is, HotR (and other abilities?) are proccing an extra seal-hit, so with just HotR you'll get a free seal-hit every 6 seconds.
Which is higher, if your weapon-speed is slower... theck did explain this very well in his MatLab-thread:

Slow weapons are good for threat. A quick check of the numbers from this analysis shows:
* Going from a 1.6 speed to a 2.6 speed weapon of equal DPS nets you around 450 TPS.

Source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p537785

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Re: Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:32 am

Instant attacks that procs seals are the reason slow is better. It's the same reason most melee dps specs like slow weapons - dps from melee attacks doesn't change with weapon speed, but any instant attack which deals a % of weapon damage is better with a high damage range weapon.
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Re: Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

Postby Gamingdevil » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:15 pm

Basically what Kysen said. Weapons of the same level have the same dps, but slower weapons will have a higher damage range (since they hit less often and need to get the same dps). Seals deal damage based on your weapon damage, which will be higher with slow weapons and can proc of almost all our (instant) attacks.
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Re: Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

Postby lovepump » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:24 am

Gamingdevil wrote:Basically what Kysen said. Weapons of the same level have the same dps, but slower weapons will have a higher damage range (since they hit less often and need to get the same dps). Seals deal damage based on your weapon damage, which will be higher with slow weapons and can proc of almost all our (instant) attacks.


Great advice guys cheers . Slowly starting to get my head around tanking now :)
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Re: Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

Postby Shoju » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:59 pm

RedAces wrote:hey

the Difference is, HotR (and other abilities?) are proccing an extra seal-hit, so with just HotR you'll get a free seal-hit every 6 seconds.
Which is higher, if your weapon-speed is slower... theck did explain this very well in his MatLab-thread:

Slow weapons are good for threat. A quick check of the numbers from this analysis shows:
* Going from a 1.6 speed to a 2.6 speed weapon of equal DPS nets you around 450 TPS.

Source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p537785

Bye, Liyandra.


No.

Hammer takes 4x weapon DPS, so an ilvl251 tank weapon, and an ilvl251 DPS weapon will hammer the target for the same damage range.

Seal damage is the key here. Weapon Damage range is based on the speed of the weapon. The slower the weapon speed, the higher the damage range, the more that Seal of Vengeance/Corruption and Command will hit for because they explicity state X% of weapon damage.
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Re: Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

Postby bashef » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:04 pm

Shoju wrote:
RedAces wrote:hey

the Difference is, HotR (and other abilities?) are proccing an extra seal-hit, so with just HotR you'll get a free seal-hit every 6 seconds.
Which is higher, if your weapon-speed is slower... theck did explain this very well in his MatLab-thread:

Slow weapons are good for threat. A quick check of the numbers from this analysis shows:
* Going from a 1.6 speed to a 2.6 speed weapon of equal DPS nets you around 450 TPS.

Source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p537785

Bye, Liyandra.


No.

Hammer takes 4x weapon DPS, so an ilvl251 tank weapon, and an ilvl251 DPS weapon will hammer the target for the same damage range.

Seal damage is the key here. Weapon Damage range is based on the speed of the weapon. The slower the weapon speed, the higher the damage range, the more that Seal of Vengeance/Corruption and Command will hit for because they explicity state X% of weapon damage.


Liyandra is right, I think you've misread Shoju. It's not that HotR hits harder with a slow weapon. Nor is it the case that seal damage associated with melee attacks increases - the seal damage that corresponds to a melee attack is higher to compensate for the fact that with a slower weapon you make fewer melee attacks.

The reason a slow weapon is good is because half our instant attacks also proc seals (HotR, ShoR and Judgement) and the number of seal procs associated with these is fixed (not tied to swing timer) so slow weapons, by virtue of their higher weapon damage, cause each one of these to hit harder.
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Re: Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:55 pm

From Seal of Vengeance:

"Once stacked to 5 times, each of the Paladin's attacks also deals 33% weapon damage as additional Holy damage."

This is what the "seal proc" folks are on about. Each attack (melee, judgement, shield, etc.) also deals 33% weapon damage (not DPS, or normalised weapon damage).

To do 200 DPS, a 1.7 speed weapon must do an average of 340 per hit. 340/3 = 113.33 seal damage per hit.

To do 200 DPS, a 2.7 speed weapon must do an average of 540 per hit. 540/3 = 180.00 seal damage per hit.

Now, for white hits, that's irrelevant, since the 1.7 does its smaller proc damage more frequently. It evens out.

But for specials, which happen at the same 969 rate regardless of weapon speed, the slower weapon does more per hit.
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Re: Using a slow 1h DPS weapon

Postby Shoju » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:47 am

bashef wrote:Liyandra is right, I think you've misread Shoju. It's not that HotR hits harder with a slow weapon. Nor is it the case that seal damage associated with melee attacks increases - the seal damage that corresponds to a melee attack is higher to compensate for the fact that with a slower weapon you make fewer melee attacks.

The reason a slow weapon is good is because half our instant attacks also proc seals (HotR, ShoR and Judgement) and the number of seal procs associated with these is fixed (not tied to swing timer) so slow weapons, by virtue of their higher weapon damage, cause each one of these to hit harder.


I did misread, we were both saying the same thing in different ways. Go me.
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