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Gemming full +sta bad?

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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Meyrinn » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:10 pm

I personally don't understand the idea of stam stacking. In some cases, stam enchants make sense over others. However, gemming it has never made sense to me, and it makes even less sense now. The maximum difference in health from pure stamina gems based on ICC gear is about 1600 health. This is using all the items with the most sockets per slot, and results in 16 non blue sockets. In ICC with the 10% buff I'm over 63k health without stam gemming. Will going to 65K save me from that 3 hit string on Festergut Heroic when all CDs are down?
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby chinoquezada » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:01 pm

Meyrinn wrote:I personally don't understand the idea of stam stacking. In some cases, stam enchants make sense over others. However, gemming it has never made sense to me, and it makes even less sense now. The maximum difference in health from pure stamina gems based on ICC gear is about 1600 health. This is using all the items with the most sockets per slot, and results in 16 non blue sockets. In ICC with the 10% buff I'm over 63k health without stam gemming. Will going to 65K save me from that 3 hit string on Festergut Heroic when all CDs are down?


Read this: http://avengingwrathy.wordpress.com/201 ... c-gemming/
If it applies to you, good. For the later HMs, it doesn't.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby cds4850 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:52 am

I think many of us on these boards and in WoW as a whole fall into the rut of looking for black and white answers and blanket statements. It's always worth referring to Digren's guide to realize that stam stacking is not a yes/no issue, but rather there is some consideration required as to whether or not at X progression and Y gearing levels one should take +6 or +9 yellow/red socket bonuses.

Otherwise this conversation boils down to trade chat idiocy "URBAD" and "DOINITRONG" which is a diservice to the people who put time into paladin tanking theory and these boards. With the shroud of internet annonymity, many love to talk down to others in this environment because they can do so without penalty and derive from it a sense of self worth that they may lack in their day to day lives. I'm sure the healer to which you referred got his lunch money stolen during recess and jumped at the opportunity to shit on someone elses day. Take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby hoho » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:59 am

Meyrinn wrote:The maximum difference in health from pure stamina gems based on ICC gear is about 1600 health.
Add in talent scaling+kings and it's over 2k.
[quote="Meyrinn"]In ICC with the 10% buff I'm over 63k health without stam gemming. Will going to 65K save me from that 3 hit string on Festergut Heroic when all CDs are down?/quote]Depends on how much you get spamhealed during it. It very well might save you, same as with dodging an extra attack.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:00 am

Meyrinn wrote:I personally don't understand the idea of stam stacking. In some cases, stam enchants make sense over others. However, gemming it has never made sense to me, and it makes even less sense now.

Why exactly? There are quite a few cases where choosing a Stamina gem over a hybrid gem is a more efficient trade of avoidance for stamina than some enchants.

It all comes down to "how much do I value stamina compared to avoidance" and "where can I make the most efficient trades for it?"
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Meyrinn » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:42 am

hoho wrote:
Meyrinn wrote:The maximum difference in health from pure stamina gems based on ICC gear is about 1600 health.
Add in talent scaling+kings and it's over 2k.
Meyrinn wrote:In ICC with the 10% buff I'm over 63k health without stam gemming. Will going to 65K save me from that 3 hit string on Festergut Heroic when all CDs are down?/quote]Depends on how much you get spamhealed during it. It very well might save you, same as with dodging an extra attack.


I included Kings and Talents into my number, but not the ICC Buff. Festergut 25H hit for 35 to 38K with a less than 1 second attack speed with 3 stacks of Inhale. 63K or 65K makes no notable difference in TTL. You would need to reach 75 or 80K to a see a notiable increase in TTL.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Meyrinn » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:48 am

chinoquezada wrote:
Meyrinn wrote:I personally don't understand the idea of stam stacking. In some cases, stam enchants make sense over others. However, gemming it has never made sense to me, and it makes even less sense now. The maximum difference in health from pure stamina gems based on ICC gear is about 1600 health. This is using all the items with the most sockets per slot, and results in 16 non blue sockets. In ICC with the 10% buff I'm over 63k health without stam gemming. Will going to 65K save me from that 3 hit string on Festergut Heroic when all CDs are down?


Read this: http://avengingwrathy.wordpress.com/201 ... c-gemming/
If it applies to you, good. For the later HMs, it doesn't.


Statements like this are what just gets me about stamina stacking. Who says that it doesn't work for later HM's? While I haven't reach LK 25H, nothing so far has made me believe that stamina stacking is the only path, and we're well into 25H. The MTs for the top 2 guilds on my server do not stamina stack. We've recently recruited a 4th tank who does and my healers refer to him as a 'soaker'. Even being the MT for the top guild on the server, I get ridiculed in random dailies for my gemming: agility/stamina red, hit/stamina yellow, stamina blue. The common mentality of the masses is now that if the tank doesn't stamina stack then he's bad. Well, I've never been swayed by the masses and made my own decisions but its at a point now that its annoying.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:28 am

What is the rationale in gemming hit in yellow sockets? How can you have threat issues dire enough to gem hit?

Anyway.

There's not really any thresholds where stamina becomes significantly better, it is universally assumed that you will recieve some healing... especially during festergut 3 stack. Which will smoothe out the curve making an increase in stamina a steady increase in TTL.

Since you're talking about festergut, lets talk about him (and I'll reference the difference to brutallus).

Festergut hits me for 30-35k, I cannot survive 2 35k back to back hits without heals. Every point of health reduces the amount of healing I need on 2 back to back hits by 1 though. (Since I assumed I dodged 1 hit before the 'back to back' hits I can assume I was full health before, stamina simply decreases the total amount of healing required over a series of N unavoided hits by 1 per point of health)
Avoidance does not at all increases my survival in the slightest if I get 2 back to back hits, but it reduces the chance of it occuring.

What should you stack?

It depends, if your healers can produce sufficient throughoutput to heal 2 back to back hits then you should stack stamina, it reduces the issue of healing granularity (not all heals might land in the right window) and compensates for a few (of the 4-5 healers on you) maybe being slightly slow on a cast. If you have the situation that very short term bersts can be completely unhealable or you have insufficient healers that healing granularity becomes a deciding factor then you should stack avoidance.

A case where avoidance stacking was good was Brutallus in TBC. This was because at the time guilds progressed on him surviving Stomp + MH/OH + MH/OH (which could occur within 1 second) was impossible AND (big difference to festergut) there were only 2-3 healers healing you making healing granularity a big issue (you could recieve only 1 heal during that 1 second window). Also it was not viable to use powerful cooldowns for every stomp.

Festergut however is very different, during his 3 stack phase you have 5-6 healers healing you this means within 1 seconds you are likely to recieve quite a few heals/hots/whatever which will make death within a 1 second window impossible, overall healing throughoutput is larger than the 35k damage he deals to you per second even if you avoid NO hits. AND you can get through the whole 3 stack phase with cooldowns (oh we have so many now and there's stuff like pain suppression and guardian spirit).


And the whole reducing avarage incoming damage thing... I mean what? Your healers are healing reactive on festergut 3 stack? It is completely irrelevant, unless you can guarantee that you need less total healing throughoutput (which avoidance never can due to it's random nature, only armor can do this) that healers can reduce healing on you any less damage you take is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

The other case that your avoidance could get high enough that burst scenarios could be completely removed simply does not exist in ICC because of Icecrown Radiance, the best boss for avoidance in wotlk was algalon, he was also the closest to brutallus.

TL;DR:

The case where avoidance shines, reducing the chance of unlucky/non cooldownable burst scenarios that splat you occuring simply does not exist in ICC. If you die to burst use cooldowns, if you die to insufficient healing get better healers, if you die to trickle down deaths get more healers or more armor. The cooldown heavy design of wotlk and icecrown radiance killed avoidance, if you want to take less damage use 2 armor trinkets and stack stamina gems.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby inthedrops » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:08 am

I probably have become way too relaxed about gearing these days. I'm super low tech about it. If I feel like I'm dieing in cases where my co-tanks aren't, I'll start talking to them and maybe try out some gearing changes. Otherwise I just continue on my merry way.

Quite honestly, on almost all the fights I think I could swing my gear any number of ways and still stay alive. But I'd never be able to PROVE (personally) that 1% here trading for 1% there was a benefit or not. So I just don't bother.

I know which fights we're most threatened in and which we aren't. And I change gear around to make things easier on my raid when I can. But I don't obsess.

Regarding theory crunching for TTL, I don't put much weight into them. I use them as a reference and as general guidance but there are way too many variables to use them as a BIBLE.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Meyrinn » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:20 am

I don't gem hit for threat. I gem hit to ensure my taunts do not miss, and for a little more DPS.

To me the minor increase in health does not smooth out the TTL curve. The math versus real world situations aren't the same thing. TTL is not a curve and its not independant of the size of the hit. I gear for enough health to ensure that my health pool is not the deciding factor in the outcome, which means if I can reach high enough to extend my TTL through .5 more hits then it makes sense to me. But thats not the case. Its rare to see a 2 or 3k overkill when I die. It more like 10k to 15k overkill. So to me, the hit is not a wasted stat, but the extra stam would be.

What bothers me is that the masses all think stam is the only way to go. There are a number of tankadins that have asked me for advice. One such paladin was denied an application to a guild after his fell apart because he wasn't gemmed for stamina. In random dailies people see my gearscore then look at my gemming and make comments about how bad tanks get carried to gear and so on. At one point there were differing schools of thought on gemming and gearing and people argued their merits. However, now it seems like the common consensus is that your a bad tank if you don't gem stamina. My guild has faith in me as a tank and they aren't swayed by the comments, but its still quite annoying.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:23 pm

Stamina is more important to paladins than to any other class because of the AD mechanics. If we extend our AD range, then we extend the damage reduction that AD provides, and we increase the amount of health we gain when AD procs.

So as far as I am concerned, stamina is way more important than hit, and I would trade 10 hit in favour of 6 stam all day long.

In fact I think it's humourous that the stam-stacking tank is referred to as a "soaker" while hit gems apparently make for a non-soaker tank. Huh? Hit rating prevents damage now? When did this happen?

If he's a soft tank, it's much more likely to do with a lack of armour, so there is a small case to be made for agi/stam gems due to the bit of armour they provide. But it's more likely a lack of armour on gear than it is from gems.

I like me some armour, but since I can't get the 10-armour = 1 stamina ratio from gems, I stack stam gems.

Healers no longer heal reactively. The heal comes whether you take the hit or not. Avoidance has been trivialised. Stamina and armour are what the game mechanics currently value.

You can trivialise the value of 1600 health all you want, but what are you trading that for? The ability to dodge 1 out of every 100 hits that happens to follow another hit when the healers are otherwise occupied? At 50% avoidance (being conservative), that follow-on dodge happens 1 in 200 times. Add the chances of there not being a heal in between, and you're talking about a very marginal difference indeed.

Actually it's worse - I just checked my gear and found I only have 4 unmatched red sockets, at .12% dodge each = .48% dodge. So once in every 400 times that the healers are busy I would avoid a consecutive hit that would proc AD. If you want to talk about the chance that there was a follow-on hit that was avoided while the healers were busy and AD had already processed, I'll need Theck's computer to calculate the odds.

I'll have the health, thanks.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Arcand » Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:37 pm

I just junked half a dozen posts in this thread which were substandard. If you're not sure
what I mean by that, there's a sticky at the top of this forum which will refresh your memory.

Carry on, if you wish.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Boyfriend » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:05 am

Meyrinn wrote:I don't gem hit for threat. I gem hit to ensure my taunts do not miss, and for a little more DPS.


Fair enough, I never had issues with my taunts missing as I glyph it and can use the 2nd taunt in almost all situation IF it misses.

Meyrinn wrote:To me the minor increase in health does not smooth out the TTL curve. The math versus real world situations aren't the same thing. TTL is not a curve and its not independant of the size of the hit. I gear for enough health to ensure that my health pool is not the deciding factor in the outcome, which means if I can reach high enough to extend my TTL through .5 more hits then it makes sense to me. But thats not the case. Its rare to see a 2 or 3k overkill when I die. It more like 10k to 15k overkill. So to me, the hit is not a wasted stat, but the extra stam would be.


I don't die much tbh even on heroic, but I do see the 2-3k overkills occuring the 10-15k overkills usually occur when healers are already dead; but I still blame those on healers and do not see it my responsibility to get avoidance to reduce the chance of it occuring (slightly) when shouting at my healers can make it never happen. I simply do not value avoidance because I do not value reducing the chance of potentially dangerous scenarios if I have other ways to completely eliminate them, avoidance simply does not reach high enough levels (70+%) where it can be relied on with Icecrown Radiance.

Meyrinn wrote:What bothers me is that the masses all think stam is the only way to go. There are a number of tankadins that have asked me for advice. One such paladin was denied an application to a guild after his fell apart because he wasn't gemmed for stamina. In random dailies people see my gearscore then look at my gemming and make comments about how bad tanks get carried to gear and so on. At one point there were differing schools of thought on gemming and gearing and people argued their merits. However, now it seems like the common consensus is that your a bad tank if you don't gem stamina. My guild has faith in me as a tank and they aren't swayed by the comments, but its still quite annoying.


I agree with you, hybrid gemming while I think bad doesn't make you a bad tank and has nothing to do with playing skill. Many players place way too much values on details of little significance that have no direct relation to player skill, to a point it's understandable since they have nothing else to judge you by but it has become excessive nowadays. Tank gemming and gearing is always a varied subject and many top of the line tanks have many gear sets and are very willing to regem is they see merit in one gemming over the other, it's not comparable to dps where there is a BiS; getting declined for hybrid gemming is a stupid thing to do, hybrid gemming might even be the best solution in the tanks current situation.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Meloree » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:11 am

Meyrinn wrote:Statements like this are what just gets me about stamina stacking. Who says that it doesn't work for later HM's? While I haven't reach LK 25H, nothing so far has made me believe that stamina stacking is the only path, and we're well into 25H.


You're completely right. Stamina stacking isn't the only path - and especially with the 5 or 10% buff, it's probably not the optimal path for 11/12. ICC25H isn't really bursty. LK25H is a slightly different story, and it's basically for him alone that I gem full stamina right now. He hurts, and he's bursty.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:01 am

Meyrinn wrote:Even being the MT for the top guild on the server, I get ridiculed in random dailies for my gemming: agility/stamina red, hit/stamina yellow, stamina blue. The common mentality of the masses is now that if the tank doesn't stamina stack then he's bad. Well, I've never been swayed by the masses and made my own decisions but its at a point now that its annoying.


You shouldn't be getting ridiculed for gemming agi/stam. Many of the late-game tanks gem agi/stam to pick up +9 or better bonuses. Someone ridiculing that doesn't know what they're talking about (and ought to be pointed to my agi vs dodge article or Digren's guide).

Hit/stam is a more difficult position to defend. Threat should generally not be an issue with proper rotation and raid tactics (misdirect or tott). Gemming hit primarly for taunt misses seems misguided, as there are better ways to close that gap. Since there are few fights where taunting is critical, it's probably better to swap in the RD glyph and one or two pieces of hit rating gear to cover the difference.

Though to be fair, gemming hit/stam in those pieces makes perfect sense, even if it's for a measly +6 stam bonus. Especially if that hit gem gives you enough that you don't need to swap as many hit pieces in to reach cap. If I could reach hit cap with one item gemmed with +20 hit, I'd probably do so since it would let me keep one additional "better" survivability item.

And if you're tanking heroics, it's half expected that you're wearing DPS gear anyhow, so I don't know why people would criticize gearing choices. I haven't had a single person ridicule me for tanking with a Berserking-enchanted Bloodvenom Blade and DMC:G. If someone gave me a hard time about it, I'd probably just tell them to worry less about my gear and more about beating me on Recount for the run.

If I wanted to match a yellow socket for a +9 bonus nowadays, I'd probably use def/stam. Not so much for the avoidance, but for the extra block % that isn't on diminishing returns. But since I'm gearing mostly for LK right now (normal on 25, heroic on 10), it doesn't make sense to do that in lieu of stamina.
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