Improving Initial Threat

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Improving Initial Threat

Postby Korendil » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:29 am

Hi. I need some help with improving my initial threat generation (the first 5-10 seconds of a boss pull). Compared to our guild warrior tank, my initial threat sucks. There are many times when I've pulled, used HoR and AS, and maybe had a chance to cast judgment and SotR when he charges in and does whatever warriors do to instantly generate double the threat I had.

I've looked at Theck's TPS thread and it looks like I should be starting off with HotR instead of SotR (even though I actually tend to cast judgment first - my bad). Besides that and actually remembering to use wings at the start (after I get five stacks of SoV), is there anything I can do to improve my initial threat?

Optimal(?) Rotation: HS, AS, HoR, HotR, Judge, SotR, Conc, HotR, HS, etc.

Also, regarding wings, doesn't it take five seconds or more to reach five stacks of SoV? If I popped wings after five stacks, it'll help me boost more threat, but it's already past the time period I'm most concerned about.

Here's a log from today for Blood Princes. The other bosses, I generally didn't do the initial pull. I did tank Rotface, but a caster face pulled the boss and my starting rotation was wrong.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-h1u1g ... 773&e=5917

Thanks.
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby Anorian » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:36 am

To be honest, a tank stealing your aggro is baaaaad. You should both know in advance who is going to tank the boss in question. If you're scared you might lose aggro ask for tricks/md's. But just take the highest aggro skill, which i think will ShotR, will be HotR when your weapon is getting better though, and open with that. Warriors do tend to do alot of initial threat with shield slam.

I'd definitely not use wings before you have a 5 stack up unless the mob is going to die withing 20 seconds or you're tanking with Command. The added threat of a full dot + 33% of your swings as holy dmg is quite a lot.

And to be fair, dps should just watch their aggro in the start. The good old days of waiting for 2 sunders are long past i guess:(.
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby Korendil » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:51 am

The issue isn't that the warrior tank pulled agro off of me when tanking a boss. The time I described where he doubled my threat on a mob was the two single trash adds in front of Deathwhisper. The problem is that raid leaders do not want to wait for me to ramp up, so the warrior or dk tank will always be the ones to pull. Why should the dps wait for me to get threat when the warrior can tank first and not cap dps? My not being first isn't important, but it makes me not interchangeable with the other tanks. As another example, since it takes me awhile to ramp up threat, we use two tanks for Anub's adds. We initially only used me, but my low initial threat was capping the dps, so we switched to two tanks. No, we did not have two rogues at the time.
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby Anorian » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:58 am

I'm afraid i can't add much to what i already said, there is no magical aggro burst your not using. If you really want use wings on the pull to do get that 20% on your first hits, maybe even wreck your 9696 by opening with the 2 sixes after each other to push out that little more threat, you'll be lower after a few sec since you have to wait a gcd to fix the rotatio but by then your threat should be high enough. You could maybe try to cast exorcism, mash taunt so that it hits earlier (this works), and then run with holy frisbee.

other than that, push your buttons harder!
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby lythac » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:06 am

Korendil wrote:I've looked at Theck's TPS thread and it looks like I should be starting off with HotR instead of SotR (even though I actually tend to cast judgment first - my bad).


You should start with ShoR.

Those calculations use a gearest with 2pc T10 increasing HotR damage by 20% (and a 251 weapon). From your Marrowgar parse

Code: Select all
Averages -

       TPS thread   Yours    Yours + 2pc T10
ShoR   3608         3657     3657
HotR   4294         3562     4274


Both your ShoR and HotR are doing similar damage/threat right now ShoR is just edging out HotR. The maximum ShoR hit came whilst under AW, your maximum HotR crit did not which is why there is a marked difference under the average crit damage (which I haven't listed).

Even getting a 251 weapon wouldn't push HotR above ShoR for you right now, will take the 2pc T10 bonus.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-h1u1g ... s=73&e=245

[{"spellNames": ["Shield of Righteousness"], "actorNames": ["Korendil"]}, {"spellNames": ["Hammer of the Righteous"], "actorNames": ["Korendil"]}, {"spellNames": ["Avenging Wrath"], "actorNames": ["Korendil"]}]

Code: Select all
[22:41:08.393] Korendil gains Avenging Wrath from Korendil
[22:41:08.393] Korendil casts Avenging Wrath
[22:41:08.504] Korendil casts Hammer of the Righteous on Lord Marrowgar
[22:41:08.751] Korendil Hammer of the Righteous Lord Marrowgar 3629 (R: 803)
[22:41:11.637] Korendil casts Shield of Righteousness on Lord Marrowgar
[22:41:11.996] Korendil Shield of Righteousness Lord Marrowgar *9347*
[22:41:14.850] Korendil casts Hammer of the Righteous on Lord Marrowgar
[22:41:15.838] Korendil Hammer of the Righteous Lord Marrowgar Dodge
[22:41:18.103] Korendil casts Shield of Righteousness on Lord Marrowgar
[22:41:18.377] Korendil Shield of Righteousness Lord Marrowgar 4206 (R: 414)
[22:41:21.403] Korendil casts Hammer of the Righteous on Lord Marrowgar
[22:41:21.543] Korendil Hammer of the Righteous Lord Marrowgar 3629 (R: 803)
[22:41:28.360] Korendil's Avenging Wrath fades
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby bldavis » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:39 pm

Korendil wrote:
Optimal(?) Rotation: HS, AS, HoR, HotR, Judge, SotR, Conc, HotR, HS, etc.



it should be HS, HoR, AS and then 969 as you get to the boss

HoR doesnt do anything if the boss/mob is already attacking oyu, however if you use it to pull, you get the damage/threat from HoR, as well as the threat from AS
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby inthedrops » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:21 pm

Ugly situation. The problem you're facing is that you now have the "no burst threat" stigma and to overcome that will take lots of time.

It's similar to how it took Paladins forever to be considering capable of tanking. It took a long time for raid leaders to change "the safe and trusted way of doing things".

My personal advice, besides trying to work on the actual issue of course (good suggestions above) is to not let it bother you and just keep doing your thing.

If you are friendly with your tanks, I would even talk to them about it. Because it sounds like they are 50% of the cause for your problem. If they're running in and whacking targets off you consistently at the pull, then they only serving to make this so called "problem" more visible. And that's not helping you.

It could be that your tanks have a bit of the "I'm better than you" syndrome going on. This is pretty normal, as long as it's also respectful. If you talk to them, express the situation you feel you're in, they might be compassionate and chill out a bit. Eventually the raid leaders will get back to the point where they see all the tanks as being equally capable.

As far as technical advice. I'll mirror some of the things said above:
1. Ask for tricks/MD's as appropriate. Whisper people if you're embarrassed to ask in the open.
2. Taunt your target when running in. Remember that taunt isn't on the GCD so you can taunt and use another ability as fast as your fingers can operate.
3. ShoR before judgement unless the DPS are far enough away that you can judge first (it has a longer range). Typically for example, I am judging while running in, and as soon as I pop through the other side of the mob (to turn him away from the raid) the GCD is up for ShoR. So ShoR, Consecrate (if you already judged, otherwise judge), Hammer, then HS (or consecrate if you didn't judge as the first ability).
4. Don't prioritize Holy Shield, especially during the pull.
5. For bosses there really isn't a good excuse for DPS or tanks to pull agro from you on the pull. But if they insist, just blow wings early.
6. On the boss pull, don't blow wings then throw your shield. You're just wasting precious seconds on your wings. Throw your shield, taunt (to buy you 4 seconds of no one being able to steal threat from you), ShoR, Judge, Hammer, Consecrate, once consecrate is on the floor blow wings. By then you'll have a couple stacks of vengeance up anyway.
7. For trash, get 8% hit and 26 expertise so that your stuff doesn't miss. You can't afford to miss anymore if you want to get over this stigma. Put on appropriate gear for bosses however.
8. Make sure they're not throwing vigilance on you. You might be surprised. In ICC, one of the warriors in my guild expressed some annoyance with tanking trash when I'm in there too (he was trying not to complain about it). I noticed vigilance on me a few times. Don't really care that much but on those large patrol skeletons vigilance definetely screws up my threat.

Raiding is a teamwork thing. Do what you can to optimize your snap threat, but also work with your raid to improve the teamwork aspect.
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby Lev » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:12 am

Pull Order: [assuming a 1,5 second swingtimer]

1. Exorcism
if there is time and the mob did not enter the fight allready)

2. Hand of Reckoning
if exorcism is beeing used, you need to spamm it to make it work, but it usually does

3. Avengers Shield
and starting running towards the boss if needed. Besides tps, AV will always trigger vindication if it hits (at least this are my observations)

4. Holy Shield
because there is nothing else we could do while running towards the boss and AV is on CD allready. Also this will be the start of our 96969 rotation.

5. Hammer of Righteous [ T=0,0 | 2/5 SoV ]
we want to use the hammer first to get our SoV stacks up asap, so our long-term-tps-start will not be delayed.

6. Concecration [ T=1,5 | 3/5 SoV ]
same reason as above... our burst tps should be enough for the second of the pull anyway, but i just figured the few seconds right after the pull to be much more of a problem than actual initial threat.

7. Shield of Righteousness [ T=3,0 | 4/5 SoV ]
just following the rotation...

8. Judgement [ T=4,5 | 5/5 SoV ]
simply because judging will not be worth being used with only 2 or 3 stacks of SoV on the boss (or at least 4 or 5 stacks are just better). If you use another seal, this will change of course. Also our attackspeed debuff is applied pretty late this way, but this should not be a problem in a point of the game, where you are bothering about your initial threat ;)
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby inthedrops » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:46 am

We're giving conflicting advice. The reason is probably because some advice is trying to solve only the specific problem mentioned which is initial snap agro; first 2 to 6 seconds into the pull. And some advice is focused on ensuring good threat at say, 6 seconds and beyond.

All the advice is solid. I just wanted to point out why some of it is contradictory.

My impression based on the OP is that he's losing agro practically instantly (first 2 to 6 seconds).
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby kysu » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:08 pm

I looked at both you and your warrior.

His gear is slightly better and he is rocking 2p t10 which helps threat alot (imo). But reguardless my opener is Hotr con Sotr HS Hotr then judgement.. otw to the mob it's Hor AS, the AS is gypled.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rz1t ... 711&e=5011

I got my 2p T10 as we pulled fester the molester.
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby Arcand » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:31 pm

inthedrops wrote:My impression based on the OP is that he's losing agro practically instantly (first 2 to 6 seconds).


After about ten seconds, if somebody rips aggro off the tank, I'd say it's the tank's fault. If it happens before that, the problem is likely DPS trying to win the meter by starting irresponsibly early.
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby kysu » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:48 pm

Arcand wrote:After about ten seconds, if somebody rips aggro off the tank, I'd say it's the tank's fault. If it happens before that, the problem is likely DPS trying to win the meter by starting irresponsibly early.


^ "basically" this
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby inthedrops » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:26 am

Arcand wrote:
inthedrops wrote:My impression based on the OP is that he's losing agro TO THE OTHER TANK practically instantly (first 2 to 6 seconds).


After about ten seconds, if somebody rips aggro off the tank, I'd say it's the tank's fault. If it happens before that, the problem is likely DPS trying to win the meter by starting irresponsibly early.


Made an adjustment in my quote. I was trying to be nice but I think the other tanks are being dicks.
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby greatcow95 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:18 am

inthedrops wrote:My impression based on the OP is that he's losing agro practically instantly (first 2 to 6 seconds).


That's exactly what it is and it's to the other tank, not to DPS worried about Recount (this and GearScore should be banned from the game due to stupid players, but I digress). Now let me preface this with one thing--everyone else on here gave some great advice and I'm most likely wrong in my little idears here.

Part of it, I think, stems from the ramp up time that SoV does due to the DoT damage. It's for the exact same reason why Affliction Warlocks don't shine on trash--trash doesn't last long enough for the DoTs to truly take effect. This is why *some* Pally tanks use Seal of Command on trash and seal swap for bosses. The only downside to this is that you lose expertise if you have the SoV glyph (and that 10 expertise is wonderful enough to make people seriously think about never switching seals).

Now on to this aggro stealing Warrior. The funny part is I think we all have had issues with the IWINstorm-ing Warrior, but this one is a tank vs tank issue. My taunt button is my friend with these Warriors...well, all right my tanking addon is my friend with them. It's called TauntMaster (I also use TankMastery to call out issues, but that's another topic) and both the left and right clicks are assigned to our two taunts. Target the red name and click, I've taunted. Right click the red name, taunted again. Just remember this doesn't work well with the Death Knight using Army of IWIN, because the ghouls will all taunt too.

I know that is an inelegant solution for the problem, but it's also a very easy solution. You KNOW the Warrior will come charging in. You KNOW he'll get the snap aggro you wanted. Use that taunt button and get his 2x aggro plus some. It's off the GCD, so you can use it and still keep up your rotation too. It's not cheating.
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Re: Improving Initial Threat

Postby Korendil » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:59 am

Guys, stop bashing the warrior tank, please. My first post was unclear. I was presenting an example of how well the warrior spikes threat. As I said in my second post, the example was from TRASH. No one cares who tanks trash. When tanking bosses, we have a specific tanking order.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice. I'm going to try to upgrade my gear, get two piece T10, and get my hand to remember to use a new rotation order. For now, I'll probably use something along the lines of AS, HoR, SotR, HW, HoTR, Judge, etc. I tried using exorcism once, but I couldn't get HoR off in time. I'm too used to AS and then HoR. Oh well.
Last edited by Korendil on Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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