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Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

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Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Alyxander » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:14 pm

I'm a relatively new tank, but don't seem to have problem with holding aggro on bosses. Where I have trouble is picking up aggro on the trash mobs, especially on 4 or more. I had a really bad PUG last night in Heroic UK, which should have been easy, but the DPS wanted a speed run and kept pulling aggro. I don't think its a gear or spec issue, I think its my technique. Once I lose aggro on a couple of the mobs, everything falls apart since I can't seem to gather them up if I don't get them at the start.

I haven't been marking the trash on the faster runs, though I am going to start marking at least the first couple.

My standard rotation is Avenger's shield, then Holy Shield -> Hammer of Right -> Judge -> Shield of Right -> Consecrate, and so on. On pulls of 3 or more, I drop a Consecrate right after Avenger's Shield.

I don't raid, just 5 mans. What's the best way to pick up aggro on 4 or 5 mobs with impatient DPS?
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:22 pm

wat are you using for glyphs?

i personally like the HoR glyph, makes it easy to tack on threat and its a decent amount too!

and i would suggest NOT using the AS glyph.

I pull using HoReck, throw AS, and as the are running in, cons and judge, then hit HoR sa soon as they are in range.

as long as dps arent AoE'ing before the mobs get there, you should be good.
the HoR will give you enough threat on packs for them to stick on you, taking cons ticks.

and if DPS is pulling off you from AoE at that point, then the mob will be dead by the time it reaches them anyway.

If they are pulling off single target, i would start marking and letting party members your kill order.

once you get some practice, you will be fine.
It sounds like your doing alright, dropping cons the right times.

i hope this helps, its just from my personal expirience as a new tankadin as well.
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:35 pm

If you have it, start the pull with Holy Shield to get the Block Value buff up, AS as you run in, and HotR immediately. Follow that with a Cons, then a ShoR on the primary dps target, then Judge whatever you want, then HotR again. By the second hammer, you should have solid aggro. SoComm helps a lot with this if you have that in your spec, as does the HotR glyph.
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Arcand » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:25 pm

Alyxander wrote:My standard rotation is Avenger's shield, then Holy Shield -> Hammer of Right -> Judge -> Shield of Right -> Consecrate, and so on. On pulls of 3 or more, I drop a Consecrate right after Avenger's Shield.


Do your pulls go "Avenger's Shield - Holy Shield - stand there for five seconds waiting for the dazed mobs to reach you - Hammer of Right"?

If so, that delay makes DPS antsy and prone to opening up early. Try pulling with either Hand of Reckoning or proximity and save Avenger's Shield for when the daze won't produce a delay.

When I'm rampaging through heroics, a group pull happens something like...

* Mark kill target while running toward it (Can you mark on the run, quickly and pretty accurately? It can be done. If you can't, give some thought to changing your key bindings.)
* I might put Holy Shield up as I'm closing; it makes perfect sense to do so.
* Pile into the bad guys. Consecrate. Avenger's Shield. Hammer. Holy Shield. Shield of Slammousness. You're now into 696 rotation on the kill target, you've unloaded a good amount of AoE threat, any casters in the group are quite possibly silenced, and between AS and HotR you've created a bright, loud audiovisual cue to the DPS that these mobs are now Tanked. (Fzasskk-Ba-DANGG!)

Note: Do not do this pile-in-and-attack stuff in BC heroics with BC-level characters; you will get your aorta handed to you. This only works in instances/with groups which forgive sloppy pulling and don't require any crowd control.
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Koatanga » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:35 pm

I'm with the pile-in-and-start-hitting technique.

Speed is your friend, so make sure you have Pursuit. Your range DPS should be OK - while they want to start as fast as possible, they do get a 30% reduction on threat due to distance.

If you hang out with the party and pull to you, some of your casters might be within 8 yards, losing their 30% reduction. If you run to the mobs, you can asure that distance is preserved.

As you run faster than most of your melee, you should be able to establish threat before they arrive.

I would recommend HS, start running, AS, Consecrate, then gogo 969.

Don't stay on your initial target - once you get some damage on it, swap to each of the others to make sure they get some personal attention.

Also, the first mobs in UK can stun you, which is terrible for threat gen. Not much you can do about that except say "lol nubs watch ag when I am stunned kk?".
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Shoju » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:00 pm

Arcand wrote:Note: Do not do this pile-in-and-attack stuff in BC heroics with BC-level characters; you will get your aorta handed to you. This only works in instances/with groups which forgive sloppy pulling and don't require any crowd control.



But the bad pulls were always the most interesting pulls!
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Alyxander » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:48 pm

Thanks, this all makes sense. My problem is that I've been focusing so much on 6969 that I've been using the same rotation for every pull - casting AS while running in, but I think the DPS unloads as soon as I do and that is allowing them to grab aggro, especially if I don't mark.

Which is higher threat gen, AS or HotR? My new plan is:

mark the skull(maybe x as well) -> HS while running in -> HotR (or AS?) -> Consec -> SoTR, 969696

Hopefully that will keep impatient DPSers happy, and they'll hold off until they see consecrate.
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Njall » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:11 pm

Alyxander wrote:Thanks, this all makes sense. My problem is that I've been focusing so much on 6969 that I've been using the same rotation for every pull - casting AS while running in, but I think the DPS unloads as soon as I do and that is allowing them to grab aggro, especially if I don't mark.

Which is higher threat gen, AS or HotR? My new plan is:

mark the skull(maybe x as well) -> HS while running in -> HotR (or AS?) -> Consec -> SoTR, 969696

Hopefully that will keep impatient DPSers happy, and they'll hold off until they see consecrate.


HoR is a good snap threat, followed up by an HoR while charging. I tend to save the AS till they are right on top of me. Remember if you toss it at something that isn't targeting you already (which your AS does), I don't think it provides you with threat.
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Arcand » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:19 pm

Koatanga wrote:Also, the first mobs in UK can stun you, which is terrible for threat gen. Not much you can do about that except say "lol nubs watch ag when I am stunned kk?".


Playing my son's mage last night, we had a DK tank who was determined to pull that whole room. He ran through one anvil and on to the other, to my consternation, then got stunned and dominated. Wipe.

We go up again, he pulls it the same way again. Stunned. Dominated. Wipe.

He whispered me, "Is it me or the healer" and I replied "I don't care, but I suggest you adapt to the situation and pull smarter this time." His argument, which he seemed to think was conclusive, was that he always pulls it this way. Great. Hey champ, know who else always does things the same way no matter what? Invertebrates.

Young tanks, don't be this guy. :x
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:09 pm

Arcand wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Also, the first mobs in UK can stun you, which is terrible for threat gen. Not much you can do about that except say "lol nubs watch ag when I am stunned kk?".


Playing my son's mage last night, we had a DK tank who was determined to pull that whole room. He ran through one anvil and on to the other, to my consternation, then got stunned and dominated. Wipe.

We go up again, he pulls it the same way again. Stunned. Dominated. Wipe.

He whispered me, "Is it me or the healer" and I replied "I don't care, but I suggest you adapt to the situation and pull smarter this time." His argument, which he seemed to think was conclusive, was that he always pulls it this way. Great. Hey champ, know who else always does things the same way no matter what? Invertebrates.

Young tanks, don't be this guy. :x


this,

omg this a thousand times
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Alyxander » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:21 pm

My problem is the opposite of "that guy" - I check the mobs, see if there is a caster or healer, mark them, see if there are adds that could be tough, look for position, maybe a wall to back up on without losing LOS to my healer...

Of course, on trash mobs, one DPS leaves, mage takes a bio, and healer thinks I'm DC'ed while I plan it all out. So then I decide to hurry up, and end up fail tanking the rest of the instance :(
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:04 pm

it sounds like you are doing things alright, as far as the planning.

with practice, you will become confident in what you can and cannot do, and be able to do it faster.

just an example, if i have a healer im used too and i know can handle it, i dont even look at their mana bar or do ready checks in H-UK. i just chain pull to first boss.

when i first started doing UK (as 70) it took me about 20 min to get to Prince K, now on hero i get there in about 3 min.

its mostly a question of your own confidence. my suggestion is to have guildies/friends run with you a few times so you get a feel for the dungeon.
and make sure you let dps/heals know your a new tank, and request they lay off the nukes/aoe for a second or 2 to let you get threat.

most dps will, and those that dont just wanted a fast run (and will find another tank that will) or wanted to be carried and not have to think(which will find another tank that will do that) I have found that MOST dps and healers wil work with you, and that is how i get most of my groups (or did before 3.3) is ppl who were patient saw i was a good tank, i just needed time and to get comfortable tanking, and now wanna run with me ALL the time! :twisted:

Just take your time, dont sweat the small stuff, and if you have to, run the dungeons on reg a few times to learn the pulls and boss tactics before you take on heroic.

the other thing i might suggest is ,if you need the emblems (which you prob do :twisted: ) and have a dps spec (or holy :D ), maybe run them as DPS/heals to learn how to pull the packs, or have a more expirienced tank run with you on their dps/hlr it helped me IMMENSLY on h-up my first time, as i had never been in there as melee (hunter main) and i had our guilds main tankadin on his DK on vent telling me how to pull each pack.

most of tanking heroics is getting comfortable with your abilities and learning the pull patterns, if gear's an issue :, chain run reg toc.

good luck, and happy tanking!
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Aedh » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:28 pm

Arcand wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Also, the first mobs in UK can stun you, which is terrible for threat gen. Not much you can do about that except say "lol nubs watch ag when I am stunned kk?".


Playing my son's mage last night, we had a DK tank who was determined to pull that whole room. He ran through one anvil and on to the other, to my consternation, then got stunned and dominated. Wipe.

We go up again, he pulls it the same way again. Stunned. Dominated. Wipe.

He whispered me, "Is it me or the healer" and I replied "I don't care, but I suggest you adapt to the situation and pull smarter this time." His argument, which he seemed to think was conclusive, was that he always pulls it this way. Great. Hey champ, know who else always does things the same way no matter what? Invertebrates.

Young tanks, don't be this guy. :x


That happens to me at least once in every H UK.
Then I remember not to zerg them all at once and pull them all anyways and laugh to myself because my healer is probably having a heartattack. I only seem to get stunned if I'm stupid and let them smack my ass. I also tend to DP on this pull and the 4 pull before Svala in UP.


I tend to AS as I run if the pack is close enough together for the shield bounce. Other wise I use HoR as I run in HotR or judge depending on how laggy I am. At some point I've probably dropped a consecrate. But every pull is different. For me at least HotR does more damage than AS, but then again I tank Heroics with the Tankard for fun. it has higher base dps than my peace keeper.
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby Arcand » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:05 am

Alyxander wrote:My problem is the opposite of "that guy" - I check the mobs, see if there is a caster or healer, mark them, see if there are adds that could be tough, look for position, maybe a wall to back up on without losing LOS to my healer...


In BC, only a tank like you would get anywhere in the heroics, and the "just kill, lol" guy would be counting floor tiles. After you've run the same instance a few times our way (the right way) you'll know who the caster/healer is and what position you want, and you'll make it happen, rapidly.

Not everyone will notice all the little things you're doing right, but when they say "Nice and smooth, thanks all" at the end, it'll be largely because of you. ;)
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Re: Threat Generation on Heroic Trash mobs

Postby bldavis » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:06 pm

Arcand wrote:
Alyxander wrote:My problem is the opposite of "that guy" - I check the mobs, see if there is a caster or healer, mark them, see if there are adds that could be tough, look for position, maybe a wall to back up on without losing LOS to my healer...


In BC, only a tank like you would get anywhere in the heroics, and the "just kill, lol" guy would be counting floor tiles. After you've run the same instance a few times our way (the right way) you'll know who the caster/healer is and what position you want, and you'll make it happen, rapidly.

Not everyone will notice all the little things you're doing right, but when they say "Nice and smooth, thanks all" at the end, it'll be largely because of you. ;)


sad but true, tanking can be a thankless calling in life.

but it is still nice when you get a dps/healer that wsp's you and says "nice run, thank you"

oc most of the time those are tanks on their alts! :lol:
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Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
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