Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

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Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Harmacy » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:26 pm

Almost all the pally tanks I see skip Vindication in their talent trees. I'm wondering if there's any method to their madness, or if they have a bad spec.

I'm having a hard time thinking about when the demo shout effect WOULDN'T come in handy, honestly. Even if you have a warrior or bear, Vindication is more powerful than their unbuffed demo shout, and you can put it up yourself (so they don't need to follow you around and/or waste a GCD).

Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication in your spec?
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Spectrum » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:37 pm

Basically all you said is true.

Vindication used to be worthless. However, they buffed it so it is now equivalent to the improved version of Demoralizing Shout*. The Demo Shout debuff is a huge one for tanks, up there with the attack speed debuffs in terms of incoming damage reduced. It's also much easier to keep up since it is automatic. So if you are tanking, you want this debuff up. The only good reason to not put it up yourself is if you can guarantee you will always have a warrior around who will provide it and you think you can spend those other two points elsewhere in such a way as to get more benefit than the guarantee that you have it up without having to rely on the warrior being there and alive.

I think most paladins just don't realize it's awesome now.

* Actually it's been a long while since I really looked at this. Could have changed.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:07 pm

Bad spec.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Argali » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:09 pm

1. Lazy paladins not keeping up with changes.
2. That doesn't boost my e-peen
3. The warrior should be the one wasting 4 talent points and a GCD to put a mandatory debuff on a boss.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Njall » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:24 am

I never remember to respec to it. I so seldom go by a trainer these days. I'm a sad, sad pally panda.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:59 am

Njall wrote:I never remember to respec to it. I so seldom go by a trainer these days. I'm a sad, sad pally panda.

Every time you raid without vindication, Basement Cat kills a lolcat.
Please, think of the lolcats.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Harmacy » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:58 am

Thanks for the replies, guys.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Njall » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:55 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
Njall wrote:I never remember to respec to it. I so seldom go by a trainer these days. I'm a sad, sad pally panda.

Every time you raid without vindication, Basement Cat kills a lolcat.
Please, think of the lolcats.


Okay, I'm never, EVER respecing! Die, lolcats, die!
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:26 pm

Njall wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:
Njall wrote:I never remember to respec to it. I so seldom go by a trainer these days. I'm a sad, sad pally panda.

Every time you raid without vindication, Basement Cat kills a lolcat.
Please, think of the lolcats.


Okay, I'm never, EVER respecing! Die, lolcats, die!

Spare the lolcats ;_;
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Shoju » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:23 am

I have it in my tank spec, but do not have it in my ret spec. Why? If I'm tanking, I want to make sure it is up. If I'm DPSing, I will let the warrior tank worry about it :lol:


No, I just rather have AM as Ret.

Seriously though? Vindication is some good now.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Njall » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:13 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
Njall wrote:
Okay, I'm never, EVER respecing! Die, lolcats, die!

Spare the lolcats ;_;
Don't make me use the hotdog pleas


After an unexpected visitation by Ceiling Cat and pausing to kill a lurking druid near the IF portal long enough to remember that 'oh yeah, trainer' (what she was doing there, I have no idea!) I have respec'd to include Vindication at the cost of some Conviction, I think. Actually, it gave me a chance to move around a lot of buttons and now my 969 rotation is down on the number keypad.
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Florisia » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:59 am

I haven't really read/seen the math on it, but I've seen pally tanks not specced into it, geared better than/similar to me get gibbed by a boss, where as I have significantly less issue with it specced into it. Granted, they've made overall poorer choices on their spec(like dumping all but 10 points into the Prot tree, with 5 in ret and 5 in holy.), but it seems like it's more than worth it to me.

I think I glanced over an article theck wrote about it while I was searching for one of his other articles. I should find that again.

Edit: Found it. It wasn't Theck that posted it originally, but there's some good info in the thread here that backs up picking up vindication as a defensive talent. I know this is the opposite of what you were looking for(A reason not to spec it), but I thought I'd bring this up in case there were any doubts. :P
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:44 am

Reason not to spec into vindication: "I have a friend fury warrior who won't ever be rage starved, will always spec 5 points into improving the shout, won't ever die and will forever stay glued to the adds I am tanking, without ever failing to refresh it. While losing less dps than I would by speccing 2 points into vindication."
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby Nekkos » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:57 pm

Shoju wrote:I have it in my tank spec, but do not have it in my ret spec. Why? If I'm tanking, I want to make sure it is up. If I'm DPSing, I will let the warrior tank worry about it :lol:


No, I just rather have AM as Ret.

Seriously though? Vindication is some good now.


I'm in the same boat. When I'm tanking I know that it's my job to do everything possible to take less damage. I expect the other tanks to think the same way and handle these debuffs themselves when I am Ret (I love Divine Sacrifice too much to swap it for Vindication when I'm Ret).
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Re: Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication?

Postby knaughty » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:48 am

Harmacy wrote:Is there a valid reason for skipping Vindication in your spec?

No
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
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