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Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

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Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby mkingan » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:43 am

I need some help on what other than spells I do for more threat,. I am throwing everything I can out there to hold agro but seems it real easy to pull it off me, no matter what combo I have in a group. I just want to make sure if it’s me I can fix it. I’m def cap (act 549) I am running the standard 6969 rotation. I have most my gear enchanted or gemed out with +stam or Def. do I need to add more strength or expertise? Any help would be great.
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby vertinog » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:22 am

Post your armory so some of the more knowledge people here will be able to see what you are currently working with.

How are you pulling the mobs also?
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby mkingan » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:30 am

ok i will as soon as it comes back up, down for maintenance
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby mkingan » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:36 am

ok here is the link, i changed some thing around, still don't know if i am on the right path, help app.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Protpaly

if that does not work its Protpaly on the Underbog, thanks
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby Arcand » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:16 am

Because you don't have a point in Improved Judgement, I guarantee you're not doing an optimal rotation. Give the 696 guide a careful re-read.

About 15% of the way down in this thread:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21932&start=0
are links to an article and a YouTube video on the 696 (aka 969, same thing) rotation.

Also - who are you running with? You're wearing gear like leading-edge tanks had 7-9 months ago, so if your DPS are in Ulduar/Triumph gear you can't really be expected to stay ahead of them when they're running flat out.
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby agelaus » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:28 am

OK, i have run into some paladins that have aggro trouble, and all i can say is how is this possible...Im sorry if i offend any of you. I am going to give you all the run down of optimizing your tps (i pull average of 10-11k on patchwork 10 )

First talent spec...

You must get improved judgments in your talent spec, and either seal of command (look at my post in talent forums for an explination) or seals of the pure. In your specific talent I would get rid of Divinity or judge of the just.

Second rotation

This rotation will only work if you got imp judgments. Do this basic rotation in this order
START EVERY PULL WITH AVENGERS SHIELD!!! This gives you a good amount of initial aggro on most targets
Second put up your holy shield and concecrate.
After the mobs are close you do Judge ---- > Sheild of the Righteous ----> Hammer of the Righteous

You then contenue the rotation with holy shield ---> Concecrat ---> judge ---> sor ---> hor

When Avengers shield, Avenging Wrath, or Holy Wrath (agains undead targets) is on cool down cast them, but contenue on with the next spell in your rotation.

So to summerize the rotation looks like this
Holy Shield ---> Concecrate ---> Judge ---> Sheild of the Righteous ---> hammer of the Righteous

If you follow that (with imp judges) you will always be casting a spell with no down time


THREE STATS!!!
If you still have trouble with threat you will need to look at your stats...get your str and sheild block value as high as you can. I have my sbv around 2k passivly (as high as 3.5k when i pop my cool downs)


Extra note
Sometimes dps doesnt get the hint that you need time to establish aggro before they can go apeshit. To avoid this from causing problems, i like to pop my avenging wrath right before i make the pull so I get the extra threat off the bat from it. Plus this frees up you oh crap buttons for when you will really need them, and makes it so you have a higher chance of using AW 2x in the fight.

Well, i hope this long shpeel (or however you spell that) helps. Like i said I have had no problems with threat, and I typically accedently pull off the other tanks cause of my tps.
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby Mutley » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:51 am

agelaus wrote:First talent spec...

...and either seal of command (look at my post in talent forums for an explination) or seals of the pure. In your specific talent I would get rid of ... judge of the just.



uhm.. no, just no.

about SoComm

Code: Select all
TLDR version:

    * If you're tanking things long enough to get a 3-stack or higher on each mob, use SoV.
    * If you're tanking 3 or fewer mobs, use SoV.
    * If you're tanking 4+ mobs, SoC will likely give you slightly higher average threat generation on each mob.
    * The differences here are all on the order of +/-300TPS except for single-mob scenarios. So SoC will not make or break your aoe threat generation.


I suggest going with something like this Don't ever drop judgements of the just, it's 20% less melee damage taken for 2 talent points.

agelaus wrote: So to summerize the rotation looks like this
Holy Shield ---> Concecrate ---> Judge ---> Sheild of the Righteous ---> hammer of the Righteous

If you follow that (with imp judges) you will always be casting a spell with no down time


What you're suggesting is 99966, which is not a rotation but a fcfs system. Which has been proven to provide less tps then an actual 96969 rotation. Using your system there actually is far more downtime on spells then when using a 96969 rotation.
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby Onyhawk » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:58 am

I have been having difficulty holding aggro and was wondering of you could take a look at my build and give me some pointers to improve.

Thanks.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Onyxknight
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:05 am

Yeah, as Mutley suggested, pretty much ignore everything agelaus said. You should take a look at some of the Basic and Advanced Training articles (Under Guides->Basic Training from the menu at the top of the forum). Particularly the 969 Rotation guide. If you have any questions about threat, you may want to look at the MATLAB TPS Analysis (under Guides->Theorycraft), though it's a little on the mathy side (but it has pretty graphs!).
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:15 am

Onyhawk wrote:I have been having difficulty holding aggro and was wondering of you could take a look at my build and give me some pointers to improve.

Thanks.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Onyxknight

The main problem I see with your build is that you took Reckoning and Conviction. Reckoning is our weakest threat talent, so in general you won't want to spec into it. At most, 3 points to move down the tree if you're not interested in the utility skills like Divine Sacrifice or Imp HoJ. Conviction isn't that much better, but it is an option for geting to one of our better threat talents (Crusade).

Since you're already going 15 points into Ret for 5/5 Conviction, you'd be better off moving 2 of those points from Reckoning to Crusade. Crusade is an excellent threat talent, and doubly so on many of the current bosses due to the extra 3% creature-type bonuses.

Most main tank specs drop a point from SA to pick up 3/3 Crusade, since 1/2 SA is enough to maintain mana levels while tanking anything harder than a heroic (and I even tank heroics with 1/2 without trouble, so that's perfectly do-able as well).

Another option is to keep your current spec but move 2 points from Reckoning and 3 points from Conviction into Seals of the Pure. SotP is as effective as Crusade on "regular" mobs, but only half as effective against demons, undead, humanoids, and elementals due to the creature-type bonus Crusade packs.

The MATLAB TPS Analysis has some plots showing the relative strength of these builds (the Crusade build would be a 5V+3C in that notation, the SotP/Reckoning/Conviction build would be 5S+3R+3V). If you're not averse to some math, you can follow the "long version" link to see the more detailed analysis of how those numbers are generated.

<edit> I should also note that for tanking serious content, I recommend taking Vindication, as it's an excellent mitigation talent. I also like PoJ, so I tend to only pick up one point in Conviction on my way to Crusade. However, since you asked specifically that you were having aggro problems, I'm assuming you're in the position where you're willing to take a little more damage to make sure the mobs stay on you, in which case skipping Vindication and PoJ is perfectly reasonble.

Once you feel confident in your threat generation, then you can start peeling points out of Conviction into Vindication (or PoJ) if you want to shore up your defenses.

Also, make sure you're properly performing the 969 rotation using the link I gave in the previous post. Following a proper 969 makes a far bigger difference in threat than any single talent point you spend, assuming that single talent point isn't HotR. :P

(I'm not joking about that by the way - each of these talent points you're moving around is less than 100 TPS; by comparison, not taking HotR or not using 969 will knock you down by nearly 2000 TPS).
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby Onyhawk » Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:12 am

Thanks. Will give that a try (re-speccing) and re-read 969.
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby agelaus » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:54 am

I dont know why so many people say i have bad ideas on threat when I tend to pull threat of the "main tank" so many times. Wouldnt that mean my tps is higher than his??

Also, about the downtime on my rotation...I have been using this rotation for a very long time, and never had any "downtime". you are pretty much casting a spell constantly...follow the rotation and by the time you get back to the first spell, it will be off cool down, and you just go back streight through the rotation as each spell gets off cool down when you are suposed to cast it.

But from what i have seen, it really doesnt matter what order you cast your spells, just that you keep that order going.
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby Werelass » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:25 am

agelaus wrote:I dont know why so many people say i have bad ideas on threat when I tend to pull threat of the "main tank" so many times. Wouldnt that mean my tps is higher than his??


I think that's because you are asserting your opinion, without backing it up with a proof of any kind. Moreover, your advice is out of context, as it may work on patchwerk for your guild, but it's still a suboptimal choice.
If you look at, for example, theck's posts: every talent spent is backed up, not just by thorough research, but also by some hardcore maths and even graphs. That's why it's so hard to argue with him :D

PS: maybe that other tank isn't all that awesome? Besides pally threat IS really strong atm.
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby snoweagle » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:43 am

@agelaus

Your MT's aggro doesn't have any bearing on whether or not you could be making better choices with your spec. Math says that single target sustained threat will be higher with vengeance. I'm not sure what class or skill level your other tank has, and to be honest it doesnt matter, you could have higher threat.

The point partly is that as tanks we must optimize for the hardest content that we're doing because by default the easier content doesn't need optimization. If you're really that pressed for snap aggro in a lol heroic or badge run naxx packs then seal righeousness and glyph HotR, that way you're not sacrificing threat when it matters: current content raid bosses.

START EVERY PULL WITH AVENGERS SHIELD!!!

Actually on a boss pull starting with a hand of reckoning immediately followed by an AS will net you a few extra K of threat to start with.
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Re: Having Difficulties holding Aggro Help

Postby Mutley » Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:58 am

agelaus wrote:Also, about the downtime on my rotation...I have been using this rotation for a very long time, and never had any "downtime". you are pretty much casting a spell constantly...follow the rotation and by the time you get back to the first spell, it will be off cool down, and you just go back streight through the rotation as each spell gets off cool down when you are suposed to cast it.

But from what i have seen, it really doesnt matter what order you cast your spells, just that you keep that order going.


You define downtime as not being able to cast anything because all abilities are on cooldown. And using your system you always have something to cast, and by your definition no downtime.

What I meant with downtime on spells is a spell being ready, but you can't cast it just yet because you have to do another spell first. Example, HotR is ready, but so is Judgement. You'd say you have no downtime because you can cast something. I'm saying you'll have 1.5 sec downtime on either HotR or judgement cause if you use one you have to wait before you can use the other.

Using a 96969 rotation you minimize the time spells are "waiting", ready but you have to cast something else first.
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