Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby Gatekeeper » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:01 am

In regard to the Vindication thing, oure DPS warriors are quite anoyed by having to pay 5 talent point just to get the same effect we get for 2. Atm we only got 1 warrior specing it for Commanding Shout, else im taking care of keeping Vindication on the main target and warriors use unimproved demo shout for AoE packs / offchance im not there.

Im not a tank but as a Ret we are faced with different choises too in oure spec. And there isent realy anyone who can argue that one spec is the ultimate spec, it all depend on the fight and the roll you play. Atm Squid is actually doing alot of offtanking since he is oure best tank when it comes to raidawareness and speed, that makes him better at picking up adds but he also takes less damage then the boss tank. Combined with running old stuff like Ulduar 10 man there is a good reason to take 2/2 SA.
The next problem is the people you raid with, i would imagine Divinity is a nice choise if you run with healers that got alot of haste and hots. Secondly it is worth checking combat logs and see what killed you, for us we often find that what kills the tanks is what happens in-between the big hits. If a tank dies to big hits because he was only on 75% HP, we can say its a healer problem, but does that mean we shouldnt try and do something about it?
In oure own perfect world we would have healing comming in 24/7 but in oure guild we got dead periods of healing on oure tank, its a problem and we do try and fix it.(id think its mostly healer coordination and people panicking on large raid damage) Until then Squid is just trying to go for the spec that fit oure current situation.

argh getting a bit off-tack here. basicly we dont force tank to spec one way, but we are more than happy to discuss tanking spec and what would be best in different situation.

(im NOT a tank so feal free to hit me with a 10 ton anvil of theorycrafting :D )
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:57 am

Okay, I'll take a crack at this. Keep in mind this isn't criticism, I'm trying to be constructive. Even I learn new things at this site every once in a while.

legg1 wrote:For my spiritual attunement, i have 2 points in this because i run alot more than only 1 instance a week. And even with SA 2/2 i run into trouble in i.e ulduar.
(Keep in mind, SA will not be a talent spent, once we got the players likeminded as our core of players, as we'd be spending 4/4 main raid nights in ToTGC and off nights for Ulduar (Dualspeccing Prot at that point)

For what it's worth, I tanked all of Ulduar with 1/2 SA at various levels of gear. The only fight that ever required 2/2 was hard-mode Vezax. Your full 969 rotation requires 268 mana per second to maintain. Divine Plea takes care of 125 mps, or nearly half that. Sanctuary gives you about 40. 1/2 SA gives you 50 mps for every 1k damage taken per second, which means that you'd only need to be taking about 2k damage per second for it to sustain your rotation. Even in Ulduar, taking less than that on a boss is a stretch (and if it is, drop some avoidance for straight stam or block value, to increase incoming DTPS and smooth it out, making you easier to heal).

The only places where 2/2 SA make much sense are Vezax (and even there you can get by without it if you're not doing hard mode), and heroics (which also isn't required if you chain-pull groups to keep DP up and increase BoSanc return; I clear the daily heroic every day and rarely stop to drink).

I haven't even included replenishment or JoWis in this either - if you have a stable ret paladin you should have both of those available, making the second point in SA even less necessary.

legg1 wrote:For divinity, i find this quite nice due to the improvement of HoTs. 1 hot alone isn't a lot, but combined it gives a decent amount of extra healing done.
Even in between impales on NB, or be in random damage or swarm on Anub i.e, it gives a higher healing taken.
There is still other damage than high-hits going about.

It's still only a 5% increase, whether it's a HoT or a big heal. It's a lot of extra healing done, but most of it is still overhealing. It doesn't matter if the druid's getting 5% more effective healing from HoTs when the paladin is topping you off every 2-3 seconds.

If the game were tuned such that boss damage was a battle of attrition, Divinity might be decent. In other words, if you tended to die from 20-30 seconds of sustained DTPS that just outweight your sustained HPS, then Divinity would be decent (I hesitate to say good), because it would be nearly 0% overheal. But that's not how the game works currently - we die to large spikes in 3-4 second windows, which necessitates a different healing style - namely we aim to be topped off as soon as possible after every attack. In that sort of environment, everyone uses their biggest heals fairly often as they panic to help you recover from the last spike, and that inevitably leads to a large amount of overheal.

The changes coming in Cataclysm may be a move towards this more reactive model of healing and damage intake, rather than the current proactive one. I'm very curious to see the result, but it doesn't change the fact that as it currently stands, Divinity is an exceptionally weak talent. It doesn't let you drop a main tank healer for another DPS, and it doesn't really increase effective healing since most of the effect is overheal. In fact, once you subtract out the overheal, I wouldn't be surprised if Divinity was only a 1-2% increase in effective healing, if that.

legg1 wrote:For Redoubt, i see no need for going into block due to the sheer amount of avoidance i already have, and my blocked damage being inferior by far compared to other avoidance/mitigation stats.

For one thing, block isn't avoidance, it's mitigation.
Second, while it's relatively well-agreed upon that block value is relatively weak given the size of boss hits nowadays, that doesn't make Redoubt a bad talent. It still reduces the damage you take by a sizable amount given our ability to be block-capped, or close to it. It still works out to somewhere between 5 and 20% physical damage mitigation, depending on the particular boss. If the talent said "Reduces physical damage taken by 3/6/10%" would you take it? Because that's basically what it does.

Not to mention that it's actually quite strong as a threat talent, as well. Every point in Redoubt is more effective than a point in Crusade for most Ulduar bosses.

So, if the talent read "Reduces physical damage taken by 3/6/10% and increases damage done from all sources by 1/2/3%," would you take it?

This is the reason that Redoubt is considered a required talent by most tankadins. You get the effect of 3/3 Improved Righteous Fury, plus the effect of 3/3 Shield of the Templar, plus the effect of 3/3 Crusade, all for 3 points. There's no better value point for point to be found anywhere else in the prot tree, to be honest.

legg1 wrote:With that said, i have specced a more universal specc than tunnel visioning the ToTGC bosses, due to the content we run while recruiting players like yourself.

I think that "tunnel visioning" is an unfair criticism. Nothing about Redoubt or Vindication makes them specific to TotGC. They're universally useful, good talents. Divinity is universally bad. More than 3 points in Divinity is a waste for sure, because I absolutely guarantee that you'll prevent more damage with one point in Redoubt than you will gain healing with one point in Divinity. Even those first 3 points are exceptionally weak, since Divine Sacrifice can be a game-breaking ability in certain fights, and there are other useful options.

For example:
  • Divine Sacrifice is useful on many fights: Razorscale, XT hard mode, Mimiron (phase 2), Freya, Thorim, Yogg (phase 2), Northrend Beasts, Jaraxxus, FC, Anub. There's a thread somewhere dedicated to the discussion of where and when this ability is useful
  • Imp HoJ and Guardian's Favor are both strong talents for Faction Champs and Anub'arak.
  • In addition, Imp HoJ is useful on any fight with adds, and in those cases can actually turn out to be reduce damage intake by more than Divinity increases effective healing. If you can stun an add for 6 seconds and prevent it from landing a 10k hit, you've just out-performed the "ideal" amount of healing Divinity would do in 100 seconds (2k heals per second base, Divinity adds 100 hps). Consider that for two talent points, you get one extra HoJ in every 100-second period, and the two talents are roughly on par. Except that one costs 2 points as opposed to 5, and one reduces spike damage, and one is guaranteed to prevent damage rather than contribute to overhealing.


legg1 wrote:And here is the line to justify it all : My threat is so high it is the least of our worries, let alone worrying about me dying even with 6-7 impale stacks + taking a impale in the face. With the constant sub100% health (or let's say, 95% of the time) i choose divinity as a booster to hots.

Your threat, high as it may be, would be higher with Redoubt instead of Divinity, as would be your survivability and damage output. Every little bit of DPS you can contribute counts when you're trying to hit DPS benchmarks and enrage timers. This should be relevant since you haven't downed heroic 25 beasts yet, which means either your guild isn't hitting the DPS marks, or your tanks are dying. I'm guessing it's the former, since that was the roadblock my guild ran into as well. Even an extra 2-300 DPS from a tank contributes towards those timers.

As an aside, I was also able to take 6-7 impale stacks and an impale without Divinity, though I'll admit that it's the one situation where the talent has anything going for it - constant DTPS intake that can exceed your HPS intake. Of course, with good healers that doesn't happen, making Divinity weak again.

legg1 wrote:Given we still have HM's in uld to do, quite a lot of them, this specc i run with is quite viable with the exception of not having the ability to soak raid wide damage.

I'd disagree, insofar as Divinity is going to be far less useful to you in Ulduar than Redoubt. You'll get more DPS, TPS, and survivability with Redoubt than Divinity. If you're still in love with the talent, you can always go 3 points in it to progress down the tree, and then still pick up 3/3 Redoubt by dropping to 1/2 SA.

legg1 wrote:That is all there is to it. Everyone have a slight modified playstyle of the 'textbook' tank, and in some situations, or even occurring events (raids), being 'unique' might just mean more than being a broken fork *.

That's great, and I'd be inclined to agree that being 'unique' probably won't make or break your ability as a paladin tank. But it also doesn't make you well-optimized, and puts you in a very poor position to criticize other player's specs, no less suggest that their spec is "weird." The fact that your spec works for you doesn't mean that it's optimal, nor does it mean that you couldn't improve even more by making it better.

Saying "my spec is unique" also isn't an excuse for making bad choices. Most people see right through that, especially those of us who've done the math to show why they're bad choices. There's a reason that the cookie-cutter spec exists, and it's based on a lot of hard work and calculation by several of us here at maintankadin.

legg1 wrote:And for vindication, we have a 100% attending (or 95%+) retridin specced into it.

Fine, though he may not always be attacking the target you're on, either due to fight mechanics (multi-mob/boss fights) or death. In addition, he has to give up something to pick it up - either raid utility (Dsac or AM) or DPS. You only have to give up a tiny bit of DPS/TPS, which you've already said isn't an issue.
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:04 am

Gatekeeper wrote:The next problem is the people you raid with, i would imagine Divinity is a nice choise if you run with healers that got alot of haste and hots. Secondly it is worth checking combat logs and see what killed you, for us we often find that what kills the tanks is what happens in-between the big hits. If a tank dies to big hits because he was only on 75% HP, we can say its a healer problem, but does that mean we shouldnt try and do something about it?

Sure, but make sure you're actually doing something. For one thing, the tanks shouldn't be dying due to crap in-between big hits. If he dies to big hits because he started at 75% HP, that could be classified as a healer problem, depending on how long he sat at 75%.

But more importantly, Divinity only increases healing by 5%. So on that 2k hot tick, you get 100 extra healing from Divinity. Let's be generous and say you got 5 HoT ticks in-between big spikes. That's 500 extra health you would have had for the boss attack, or roughly 1% of a tanks total health pool. Did you die by more than 500 overkill? Does your tank still die to the spike if he's at 76% or 77% rather than 75%? If so, then Divinity did absolutely nothing for you in that scenario.

Redoubt might have saved you though, since it would reduce each boss melee by X damage, and X is a pretty sizeable number (300-500 or so per hit depending on what gear you use, more if you have higher BV).
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby legg1 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:50 am

theckhd wrote:It's still only a 5% increase, whether it's a HoT or a big heal. It's a lot of extra healing done, but most of it is still overhealing. It doesn't matter if the druid's getting 5% more effective healing from HoTs when the paladin is topping you off every 2-3 seconds.


For NB this is ofc spot on, but as a personal oppinion its not the case with every bossfight there is. With that said i have in mind to try and reduce the % of overheal that is thrown, not for my own benefit, but healing overall.
While the talent is insignificant in TotGC, it will gain on healing by reaction rather than pre-casting.

theckhd wrote:If the game were tuned such that boss damage was a battle of attrition, Divinity might be decent. In other words, if you tended to die from 20-30 seconds of sustained DTPS that just outweight your sustained HPS, then Divinity would be decent (I hesitate to say good), because it would be nearly 0% overheal. But that's not how the game works currently - we die to large spikes in 3-4 second windows, which necessitates a different healing style - namely we aim to be topped off as soon as possible after every attack. In that sort of environment, everyone uses their biggest heals fairly often as they panic to help you recover from the last spike, and that inevitably leads to a large amount of overheal.

As above, there are still fights, even in tier8.5 content, where the DTPS is spread more evenly across the timeframe, rather than slow but hard hits (Yogg p1, p2, p3 down to One light, XT, Kologarn, Freya, Mimi etc etc you see where im going with this one).

theckhd wrote:The changes coming in Cataclysm may be a move towards this more reactive model of healing and damage intake, rather than the current proactive one. I'm very curious to see the result, but it doesn't change the fact that as it currently stands, Divinity is an exceptionally weak talent. It doesn't let you drop a main tank healer for another DPS, and it doesn't really increase effective healing since most of the effect is overheal. In fact, once you subtract out the overheal, I wouldn't be surprised if Divinity was only a 1-2% increase in effective healing, if that.

I havent read much into cataclysm yet, so thats outside my field.

theckhd wrote:For one thing, block isn't avoidance, it's mitigation.
Second, while it's relatively well-agreed upon that block value is relatively weak given the size of boss hits nowadays, that doesn't make Redoubt a bad talent. It still reduces the damage you take by a sizable amount given our ability to be block-capped, or close to it. It still works out to somewhere between 5 and 20% physical damage mitigation, depending on the particular boss. If the talent said "Reduces physical damage taken by 3/6/10%" would you take it? Because that's basically what it does.

Bad formulating by me, and i appologize for not going so thoroughly through the redoubt talent, as im going by whats getting me killed how and why. And as of now, stamina-whoring with high avoidance is what is keeping me alive on i.e ToGC, or even Normal ToTC for that matter. But as that still isnt our problem by far with yet to killing NB, i dont find it a vital talent to work towards in our setups.

theckhd wrote:Not to mention that it's actually quite strong as a threat talent, as well. Every point in Redoubt is more effective than a point in Crusade for most Ulduar bosses.

This also breaks down to threat, which is not a problem for us. (Altho it was earlier on hodir HM in the beginning, that i'll admit. But then again, it was more a l2p issue than talent issue)

theckhd wrote:This is the reason that Redoubt is considered a required talent by most tankadins. You get the effect of 3/3 Improved Righteous Fury, plus the effect of 3/3 Shield of the Templar, plus the effect of 3/3 Crusade, all for 3 points. There's no better value point for point to be found anywhere else in the prot tree, to be honest.

If that is infact the case, then i am missinformed or have missread, what you want to call it, and its a more desireable talent of course.

theckhd wrote:I think that "tunnel visioning" is an unfair criticism. Nothing about Redoubt or Vindication makes them specific to TotGC. They're universally useful, good talents. Divinity is universally bad. More than 3 points in Divinity is a waste for sure, because I absolutely guarantee that you'll prevent more damage with one point in Redoubt than you will gain healing with one point in Divinity. Even those first 3 points are exceptionally weak, since Divine Sacrifice can be a game-breaking ability in certain fights, and there are other useful options.

Was not meant as a criticism, as i have said, everyone got their playstyle/talent setup to cover their current needs, and as also said - when we move to 25TotGC 4/4 weekly, a different setup will be made for DS, but as of now im doing too little actual main tanking in ToTC.

theckhd wrote:For example:
  • Divine Sacrifice is useful on many fights: Razorscale, XT hard mode, Mimiron (phase 2), Freya, Thorim, Yogg (phase 2), Northrend Beasts, Jaraxxus, FC, Anub. There's a thread somewhere dedicated to the discussion of where and when this ability is useful
  • Imp HoJ and Guardian's Favor are both strong talents for Faction Champs and Anub'arak.
  • In addition, Imp HoJ is useful on any fight with adds, and in those cases can actually turn out to be reduce damage intake by more than Divinity increases effective healing. If you can stun an add for 6 seconds and prevent it from landing a 10k hit, you've just out-performed the "ideal" amount of healing Divinity would do in 100 seconds (2k heals per second base, Divinity adds 100 hps). Consider that for two talent points, you get one extra HoJ in every 100-second period, and the two talents are roughly on par. Except that one costs 2 points as opposed to 5, and one reduces spike damage, and one is guaranteed to prevent damage rather than contribute to overhealing.

Wasnt the DR fixed for Taunt mechanics, HoJ and HW?

theckhd wrote:Your threat, high as it may be, would be higher with Redoubt instead of Divinity, as would be your survivability and damage output. Every little bit of DPS you can contribute counts when you're trying to hit DPS benchmarks and enrage timers. This should be relevant since you haven't downed heroic 25 beasts yet, which means either your guild isn't hitting the DPS marks, or your tanks are dying. I'm guessing it's the former, since that was the roadblock my guild ran into as well. Even an extra 2-300 DPS from a tank contributes towards those timers.

Of course, every bit helps, but to put it simple on the roadblock - we basically have had 13-14 out of x dps'ers hitting their mark and then some for Beasts, which results in a too high uptime on 4x Rising Anger, too tight phase change (20% spawn basically), let alone the mockups with p2 (altho that last bit isnt related to tanks)

theckhd wrote:As an aside, I was also able to take 6-7 impale stacks and an impale without Divinity, though I'll admit that it's the one situation where the talent has anything going for it - constant DTPS intake that can exceed your HPS intake. Of course, with good healers that doesn't happen, making Divinity weak again.

As this is a different part of the fight, as where it has failed, reactive healing works to a certain degree, to around 50% boss-health where i have to swap tanking and go shield myself to remove the debuffs.
Here i can only say that the extra 5% healing recieved from the big heals, or small, just after a impale helps a fair bit as we're not having a spamfest on me.

theckhd wrote:I'd disagree, insofar as Divinity is going to be far less useful to you in Ulduar than Redoubt. You'll get more DPS, TPS, and survivability with Redoubt than Divinity. If you're still in love with the talent, you can always go 3 points in it to progress down the tree, and then still pick up 3/3 Redoubt by dropping to 1/2 SA.

Im not in love with the talent as it may seem, and open to swapping around and trying, this is again something we've ran with for a long time and we've never had a issue with it.

theckhd wrote:That's great, and I'd be inclined to agree that being 'unique' probably won't make or break your ability as a paladin tank. But it also doesn't make you well-optimized, and puts you in a very poor position to criticize other player's specs, no less suggest that their spec is "weird." The fact that your spec works for you doesn't mean that it's optimal, nor does it mean that you couldn't improve even more by making it better.


For my specc, it comes down to it being a 'overall' specc, not optimized and as such ive never claimed it is 'The Specc' nor would i ever do so.
This is broken down to personal prefference thus thinking it was a 'weird' specc, as far as i can recall the tank in question are yet to start with the heavier encounters.

theckhd wrote:Saying "my spec is unique" also isn't an excuse for making bad choices. Most people see right through that, especially those of us who've done the math to show why they're bad choices. There's a reason that the cookie-cutter spec exists, and it's based on a lot of hard work and calculation by several of us here at maintankadin.


Appriciated work no doubt, but keep in mind a personal oppinion cant be counted on as a bad choice, when its a matter of own prefferences again.

On a overall scale, the talents i've chosen might or is according to you, WORSE than other options, sure, i cant but agree as that is how you look at it and have crunched the numbers.
But from my/our point of view it is what has worked for us up until now, and still working judging from who takes what up the choochoo dying from it.

theckhd wrote:Fine, though he may not always be attacking the target you're on, either due to fight mechanics (multi-mob/boss fights) or death. In addition, he has to give up something to pick it up - either raid utility (Dsac or AM) or DPS. You only have to give up a tiny bit of DPS/TPS, which you've already said isn't an issue.


This comes down to setup again, as we're used to running with 2 very high dps retridins, and in fights where we swap mobs around we're usually running in 2 groups for melee's as well, meaning we have most debuffs available, on both targets being killed.

--

Unfortunately, wont current recruitment allow us to dedicate a 100% of our time to TotGC, in which case it'd be specc focus pr boss as we progress, not a overall specc for the whole place (Respeccing between encounters if needed be as you probably remember from vanilla).

-edit-
fail on quotemarks.

Also note this is not taking a crack at your calculations, experience or personal likings.
As stated a few times, it comes from my/our POV alongside whats worked and currently working.
Different encounters require different setups and speccs, the way it should be.
Including but not limited to speccs and number of x role.

-edit2-
Gonna buy badger SBV gear, and try with redoubt specc, to see how much i can block and % chance.
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:16 am

Rather than respond to each individual component of your post, I'm going to make one broad statement, and then comment on a few specific details.

Broad Statement: A lot of your choices seem based on personal opinion, which isn't a reliable source. Even my opinion has been shown to be unreliable in the past once the numbers have been run. As such, I try not to trust anything until I see hard evidence.

You may not believe that Divinity is mostly overheal, but most of us do, because most models of damage intake and healing suggest that it's true. It's really pretty independent of boss fight too; even on an ideal fight like NB where the bulk of the damage cannot be avoided or blocked, or a fight where the damage is consistent and even, it still ends up being a weak talent.

Furthermore, you say you're doing a lot of off-tanking right now. In that case, the mitigation value of Redoubt is lower, especially if you're not actively tanking something. But the value of Divinity is also reduced, because your damage intake isn't significant. A single druid HoT will keep you toppped off if you're not actively tanking something, and Divinity won't change that significantly enough to matter. So you'd still be better off with Redoubt for the extra damage, simply because you're better off taking something than nothing.

If you are actively tanking something, Redoubt wins hands-down, because it's more effective at preventing damage than Divinity is at replacing health. In either case, there's absolutely no reason to have points in Divinity at the expense of Reckoning.

Whether your spec works "well enough" for the current content is irrelevant. We're saying that it would work even better with Redoubt. As an extreme example, I could probably tank all of the current content without Improved Righteous Fury and Shield of the Templar, but that still wouldn't make foregoing 9% damage reduction a smart choice.

Details:
legg1 wrote:
theckhd wrote:This is the reason that Redoubt is considered a required talent by most tankadins. You get the effect of 3/3 Improved Righteous Fury, plus the effect of 3/3 Shield of the Templar, plus the effect of 3/3 Crusade, all for 3 points. There's no better value point for point to be found anywhere else in the prot tree, to be honest.

If that is infact the case, then i am missinformed or have missread, what you want to call it, and its a more desireable talent of course.

I may have exaggerated a little bit here. Redoubt alone isn't responsible for 10% reduction, but block value in general is. Redoubt gives every point of Block Value you have a better modifier. So it's closer to around 3% damage reduction total, or about 1% per point, which is still on par with either of those talents (Imp. RF or SotT) individually. However, it really depends on your block value and the size of the incoming hit. In high-BV sets, it's worth an awful lot of mitigation. In normal "MT" sets with reasonably low BV, it's still a couple percent and worth the investment. For hard-hiting and slow-hitting bosses it's less effective, and for faster, weaker attacks it's very strong.

legg1 wrote:Wasnt the DR fixed for Taunt mechanics, HoJ and HW?

Taunt, the HoJ stun, and now Holy Wrath's stun all trigger Diminishing returns, yes. Holy Wrath was changed so that it wasn't possible to trivialize the adds in the Anub'arak fight by chain-stunning them with multiple paladins cyclilng Holy Wrath.

However, that doesn't matter for HoJ, since it's on a 30-second cooldown at minimum, which is still longer than the DR timeout period. If you're the only one stunning a mob, you'll never see DR on your HoJ.

legg1 wrote:For my specc, it comes down to it being a 'overall' specc, not optimized and as such ive never claimed it is 'The Specc' nor would i ever do so.
This is broken down to personal prefference thus thinking it was a 'weird' specc, as far as i can recall the tank in question are yet to start with the heavier encounters.

Personal preference only goes so far, and few people would consider redoubt to be an optional talent. It's just too strong a talent to pass up. Failing to take it is an admission that you like taking more damage from bosses. Don't forget that the damage you prevent can't kill you, but damage you willingly take with the expectation that your healers will cover for you can, even with the help of Divinity.

Regardless of whether he's done the harder encounters, he's at least spent the time researching his class in order to optimize his spec. If you had quibbled with him about taking Imp HoJ or Divine Guardian instead of Divinity with his 3 discretionary points, that'd be one thing. That's a reasonable thing to have a discussion about. Suggesting that he pass up a large chunk of mitigation and threat for a very weak talent is something else entirely.


legg1 wrote:Gonna buy badger SBV gear, and try with redoubt specc, to see how much i can block and % chance.

I actually wouldn't recommend buying the SBV gear. Even in standard MT gear, Redoubt is a strong talent, and well worth taking. You still want to gear for the encounter, and few encounters reward going out of your way to stack BV, and even fewer reward stacking block rating. But extra block value you can get for free (or at least, with talent points) is still valuable, especially when you don't really have another strong choice.
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby legg1 » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:39 am

Tried a little of the SBV stuff (Seriously too much badges).
With the SBV pants i.e it dropped me 400~dmg mitigated by a block, so yeah, thats a shoot and miss.

But i think we're going past eachother a bit here, im not argueing (unless i've been pro at formulating myself again) against redoubt being a good talent, but my likins for divinity.

And as expressed, im willing to try the other way around etc, but the whole deal started with current content / raids and what ive found to be the 'best' solution for me and our raid pre-TotGC.

For DR on HoJ, we're running with 3 pallies stunning for anub, asuming we will do the same for 25HC when that time comes, altho that could probably be countered with 1pala > x mark, going around.

But, with current content being cleared (the guild-level) the imp HoJ isnt even close to a necessity for us.

I stand corrected on the Redoubt talent, hands down, but that doesnt take away my right to think another persons specc is weird (with surroundings taken into consideration). Thats dictating :P
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby snoweagle » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:14 am

So in the end I've gone with just the change to crusade, Legg1 and I have spoken in-game come to a bit of understnding regarding different ideas about specs etc, so am giving the guild a fair go in a trial as I may have misjudged the ammount of 'my way or the highway' there.
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby æ » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:46 am

Meloree wrote:My instinct would be to run not walk.

Or back away slowly without making any threatening movements.


Because if you did, you might peel aggro off him.
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby Werelass » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:48 am

Sad ending to this story. The guild stopped functioning as legg1 quit and transferred to 'be at level and content he sees fit for himself as a tank'. None of the officers wanted to take over their duty (afak) so the guild stopped raiding, and we're a little stranded on the new server.
Gatekeeper is being really nice tho, trying to help us find a place.


So...anyone need a decent tree and tankadin?
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby Splattage » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:20 pm

I, for one, would like to take a moment and thank Theckhd for all his work here. Both for deep math and for being around here to help talk with.
It would have been immensely easier to simply link:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?p=496472&rb_v=viewtopic#p496472
and call it a day.
Hell, it would be even easier to be me and sit in the cheap seats and just check the math every once in a while to make sure I agree with the assumptions.
But through all that work and effort, you are making this a better game.
I know I enjoy playing the game a great deal more for all I have learned here.
So please allow me to HiJack this thread for a moment and say
Thanks Theckhd!
Splattage : My job is simple : Take every boss hit : Don't Die : the rest is up to you
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby agelaus » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:06 am

Ok, there are some things that most pople would say are "weird" but i understand. There is only a couple changes I would suggest to your talent build.

Move your point of Conviction over to seal of command, That is a very good tanking seal, and will do very well in aoe situations. If you dont do that, then drop conviction + Crusade+ one other point somewhere to get Seals of the Pure.

Other than that your spec looks ok....if youhave no mana problems then you dont need spirit atunn, If you get Seal of command you may want to grab reconing if you can find a way (get rid of . but other than that its good :D

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-tale ... us&group=1

there is my talent if you want to look, but im planning on getting rid of seals of the pure for Divine Guardian and Persuit of justice.
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby Epimer » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:51 am

agelaus wrote:Move your point of Conviction over to seal of command, That is a very good tanking seal, and will do very well in aoe situations. If you dont do that, then drop conviction + Crusade+ one other point somewhere to get Seals of the Pure.

Other than that your spec looks ok....if youhave no mana problems then you dont need spirit atunn, If you get Seal of command you may want to grab reconing if you can find a way (get rid of . but other than that its good :D


...are you trolling? Please go read the stickies and some of the Advanced Training posts before giving out terrible advice.
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:58 am

agelaus wrote:Move your point of Conviction over to seal of command, That is a very good tanking seal, and will do very well in aoe situations. If you dont do that, then drop conviction + Crusade+ one other point somewhere to get Seals of the Pure.

As I pointed out in the other thread you started about SoCleave, this is terrible advice.

SoCleave is a pretty useless tanking seal. The only places it outperforms SoV are those where stuff dies so fast that it barely matters whether you're using a seal at all.

Seals of the Pure is in general not worth taking over Crusade. For anyone running a variety of content, Crusade will end up on top. The only way I could see speccing SotP over Crusade is if you're running only Ulduar and nothing else.
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby Robbert » Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:17 pm

There is one point in favor of Divinity that has not been mentioned anywhere in this thread. Divinity increases the healing done by judgement of light. On fights where there is a steady stream of raid damage incoming (Sapphiron and Steelbreaker last, Twin Val'kyr, Anub P3 come to mind) this can result in a considerable boost to raid healing.

That being said, I still would not take Divinity in either my tanking or retribution specs. The opportunity cost is (in my opinion) too high, the situations where it has the potential to shine are few, and raid healing is pretty low on the 'to-do' list in a tank or dps role.
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Re: Talent sanity check - guild app conversation

Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:23 am

Robbert wrote:There is one point in favor of Divinity that has not been mentioned anywhere in this thread. Divinity increases the healing done by judgement of light. On fights where there is a steady stream of raid damage incoming (Sapphiron and Steelbreaker last, Twin Val'kyr, Anub P3 come to mind) this can result in a considerable boost to raid healing.

That being said, I still would not take Divinity in either my tanking or retribution specs. The opportunity cost is (in my opinion) too high, the situations where it has the potential to shine are few, and raid healing is pretty low on the 'to-do' list in a tank or dps role.

5% of 2% is 0,1% more heals. Even on a 50k hp tank that's only 40 more hp per attack. Not really worth it for that purpose.
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