Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:38 pm

I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect that it's still the usual 2-roll system for specials, with the crit roll performed if the first roll resulted in a hit or blocked hit.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby jak3676 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:47 pm

Combat Table Coverage vs what's shown on my char sheet?

When trying to gear towards the 102.4% CTC what numbers do you need to adjust when looking at your char sheet? I see that MISS isn't shown at all - so there's 5% more CTC (4.4% against a level 88), right? Compared to the numbers shown on the char sheet, I also need to subtract 0.6% from Dodge, Parry and Block (for level 88 mobs), right? Is there anything else I'm missing?

I know there's some addons that can calculate this for you - I just want to be sure I understand where the basic numbers come from first.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:16 pm

From your character sheet, you can simply add up your dodge, parry, and block percentages and add 5% miss. Your target is 102.4% for a level 88 boss.

If you'd rather think in terms of reaching 100% CTC, then you'd have to subtract off 0.6% from all four of those values. In practice, I find it far easier to just aim for 102.4% instead of doing the subtractions. There's also an addon called "Visual Combat Table" which will do the math for you if you mouse over a level 88 boss.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:36 am

Updated to reflect the change to 5% base dodge. Also slightly updated the descriptions of our abilities and fixed a link.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:29 am

I wonder if changing the titles of our guides would make them
more helpful to newbies.

Right now our top post is Basic Training 101. The '101' is
often understood to be the most basic information, the first-term
freshman class; people will be inclined to hit that first, and it
drops them into a slightly mathematical discourse about the
attack table.

Below that is what I consider our real Tanking 101 thread: the
"spec protection, at first just wear mail with stamina and strength
and get yourself a shield" stuff.

On the con side, the FAQ is somewhat famous under its current name
and changing it could be construed as shifting credit away from the
original author. That would be bad.

Would the usability of the guides be improved by changing their order
and renaming them to Tanking 101 (How to Get Started) and Tanking 102
(Introduction to Theory and Gearing), and would the benefits outweigh
the above concern and all the other drawbacks I haven't thought of
(including possibly search engine optimization)?
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:46 am

The original intent was to have several BT101 articles, all covering different aspects of tank theorycrafting at a beginner level. However, there really isn't a need for them, nor do I have a lot of time to write them. The information in the Basic FAQ pretty much covers everything you'd want to have in a beginner's guide, and I don't think it makes sense to split each post up into its own topic.

Perhaps the simplest solution is to just drop the BT101 name entirely. I could change the name of this thread to "Theorycrafting 101: The Attack Table" or "Beginner Theorycrafting: The Attack Table." That would make it a little clearer that this thread isn't your first stop on the road to tanking.

I'm not opposed to changing the name of the 4.2 FAQ, but "Basic Training 101: 4.2 Protection Paladin FAQ" is a bit long-winded. If we did that, the Attack Table article could be bumped up to BT102. I'm fine with either choice, really.

Name recognition and google rank are something I hadn't thought of, though I'm not sure how important it is. We're actually pretty low in the results for "protection paladin," but anything with "tankadin" tends to put us at the top. Keeping "Protection Paladin" in the thread title is probably wise either way. Something funny is going on with the hyphen as well, google seems to prioritize the first few words. Maybe "4.2 Protection Paladin FAQ - Tankadin Basics" would be better, since it puts "protection paladin" in the front, and we'll already be getting high rankings for "tankadin" already.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:03 pm

Target Miss % Dodge% Parry% Glancing%
Level Melee Spell
85 5.0 4 5.0 5.0 6

What are the "vanilla" (equal lvl) percentages for crit and hit?

I get how the level modifiers work for the "defense" version of the attack table but what about this version?

I want to set up my own spreadsheets so I can plug in my gear and see what holes need filling.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:15 pm

Sorry :/

Just realized Glancing on offense is the same as Block on Defense.

Still not sure how the non-standard scaling of the Offensive Version of the Attack Table works for stuff like:

Miss/Melee; Miss/Spell; Parry

Any help/explanation would be appreciated.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:12 pm

Glancing is only for auto-attacks. Bosses do have a chance to block melee attacks now (ever since 4.0, I think), but I'm not sure I ever updated the article to account for that. It works like glancing though, and you can't remove it from the table.

What exactly are you asking though? The formulas are pretty straightforward:
Code: Select all
melee_miss=5+0.5*(npc_lvl-player_level)+0.5.*lvl_flag
spell_miss=4+(npc_lvl-player_level)+10.*lvl_flag


where level_flag is 1 if ((npc_lvl-player_level)>2) and 0 otherwise.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:32 am

Dang, I love this forum/thread. :D

That's just what I was looking for.

It was the level flag that I couldn't come up with from just looking at the sequence of numbers.

I think the Melee modifier must be 1.5? If it is 0.5, then the result at 3 lvl difference is 7 not 8.

So, am I correct in assuming Parry's level flag modifier is 7.5 (understanding it only comes into effect on Melee attacks).

Also, does an Elite get the same "melee crit" and "glancing blow" modifiers as a Boss?

Are these formulas readily available somewhere so I don't have to pester you quite so much?
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:00 am

Oops. I made an error in transcribing the MATLAB code, which still uses the old "defense/weapon skill" system. The code was:
Code: Select all
npc.phmiss=5+npc.skillgap.*(0.1+0.1.*skillflag);


Translated to level, this should be :
Code: Select all
melee_miss = 5 + 5*lvl_diff*(0.1+0.1*lvl_flag)
           = 5 + 0.5*lvl_diff + 0.5*lvl_diff*lvl_flag


I missed distributing the level difference into the second term. So for a level+3 boss or mob, it would be 5+0.5*3+0.5*3*1 = 5+1.5+1.5 = 8.

It doesn't matter whether a mob is normal, elite, or boss type - all that matters is the level difference. A level+3 mob will still give you an 8% miss chance, even if they're not a boss (i.e. a level 80 character attacking a level 83 mob in Deepholm or Uldum). Similarly for crit suppression and glances.

If you can read matlab code, everything is in the cataclysm branch of the matlabadin project. We're currently working on the MoP mechanics, which are slightly different from what's on live. Of course, you'll have to figure out where to look to find the information you want, which is non-trivial.

Once MoP goes live I'm sure I'll be revising this article to reflect the new mechanics; when I do, I'll include the formulas explicitly.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby tlitp » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:58 am

theckhd wrote:Glancing is only for auto-attacks. Bosses do have a chance to block melee attacks now (ever since 4.0, I think), but I'm not sure I ever updated the article to account for that. It works like glancing though, and you can't remove it from the table.

The emphasized parts are inaccurate.

Common to both 4.x and 5.x :
1. All NPCs have a chance to block physical attacks (it can reach 0%, but it's there).
2. The damage reduction of blocked hits is level-independent, at 30%. The damage reduction of glancing blows is level-dependent, in contrast.
3. Autoattacks that are glancing blows cannot be blocked (nota bene : that's true even in 5.x). The same should be true for crushing blows in 5.x.
4. Ranged attacks can also be blocked. The same should be true in 5.x too.
5. Blocks cannot be removed from two-roll tables (i.e. "yellow" attacks).

4.x :
1. Blocks can be removed from one-roll tables (i.e. autoattacks), because "miss" events and glancing bows are rolled for first.
2. The chance to block an attack is level-independent.

5.x :
1. Blocks cannot be removed from autoattacks (i.e. the former one-roll tables).
2. The chance to block a physical attack seems to be level-dependent. Additional testing required.
3. Autoattacks are rolled for two times (not one, as in 4.x) : one for miss/GB/crit/CB/hit (in this order), and hits/crits roll once again for blocks.
4. "Yellow" attacks are rolled for three times (not two, as in 4.x) : one for hit/miss, one for critical strikes, one for blocks.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:08 am

Took a look at MatLab. Nicely done and it does make sense (well commented) but I'm having trouble reconciling the section on avoidance.

When I plug data into the MatLab Avoidance formula I get the following results:

13 pts Gear Avoidance Stat => 0.076858794% increased Avoidance
179 pts Gear Avoidance Stat => 1.04269442% increased Avoidance
358 pts Gear Avoidance Stat => 2.052776144% increased Avoidance

Yet, in the Wowhead gear database I find Stoneform Shoulders with a Dodge Rating of 13 that offers a 1.53% increase at level 40 and a Archaic Defender with a Dodge Rating of 13 that offers a 2.46% increase at level 31.

Is there a level modifier required?
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby tlitp » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:57 am

We're lazy bastards, matlabadin's cnv.dodge_dodge (and the parry equivalent) is level-invariant. That's because we're assuming a level-capped character.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:17 am

tlitp wrote:
theckhd wrote:Glancing is only for auto-attacks. Bosses do have a chance to block melee attacks now (ever since 4.0, I think), but I'm not sure I ever updated the article to account for that. It works like glancing though, and you can't remove it from the table.

The emphasized parts are inaccurate.


To be fair, I was being brief, not rigorous. We don't have any ranged attacks in our arsenal, everything is coded as a spell or a melee attack with the dodge/parry flag disabled, so the only things of relevance are auto-attacks and melee abilities. And there's no stat you can stack to remove blocks from the table. Certainly it can be pushed off by misses/glancing, but I haven't heard of anyone stacking melee miss. :P
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:20 pm

tlitp wrote:We're lazy bastards, matlabadin's cnv.dodge_dodge (and the parry equivalent) is level-invariant. That's because we're assuming a level-capped character.

Does anyone have the level dependent part of the formula? I guess I could reverse engineer it with the gear stats but if someone else has already done the heavy lifting it'd be nice.

Interest is two-fold:

1 ) I'm a high school teacher. I'm using this stuff in developing a lesson to intro some high school kids to the importance of math (probability and modifiers) to game programming.

2) I'm just plain having fun geeking out on the stats effects spreadsheet I'm making. :oops:
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby lythac » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:54 pm

Level dependent part of the formula can be found in Whitetooth's thread at EJ - Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm), below the first table.

Also if you hadn't seen on wowhead you can change the level part of "(2.46% @ 31)".
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby tlitp » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:07 pm

theckhd wrote:We don't have any ranged attacks in our arsenal (...)

...anymore. :P

Toradin wrote:
tlitp wrote:We're lazy bastards, matlabadin's cnv.dodge_dodge (and the parry equivalent) is level-invariant. That's because we're assuming a level-capped character.

Does anyone have the level dependent part of the formula?

Go to this SimC file, look near its end for "combat ratings etc", extract the exact values corresponding to level 60, then use Whitetooth's formula to extrapolate. Or, well, use the tables generated from DBC data directly.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:06 pm

tlitp wrote:
theckhd wrote:We don't have any ranged attacks in our arsenal (...)

...anymore. :P

No, we never did. The game treats melee and ranged attacks differently. Judgement and AS have never been "ranged" attacks in the game's language, even though I've called them that in this thread and elsewhere to distinguish them from "regular" melee attacks like CS and SotR. J and AS have always (or at least, as far back as I can remember, at least since Wrath) been coded as melee attacks that had their dodge/parry flag turned off.

If they were true ranged abilities, they would scale with ranged attack power instead of melee attack power, which you can show is not the case.

But in any event, now that they're spells in 5.0, that ambiguity has been removed.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Schroom » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:02 pm

Just a short question, as there is a thread in our forum. "Hammer of wrath" is it Magical? Or does it have a phisical component? because following this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVrziwvprRU hammer of wrath hits though the cloak of a rogue. Should do the same to ams then. Allthough someone tested it, it didn't work, not with cloak not with ams. Any clarification would be apreciated. :)
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:40 am

Hammer of Wrath is also a melee attack with the dodge/parry flag turned off. Curiously, they forgot to turn off the block flag on HoW though (AS and J cannot be blocked). I'm not sure what type of attack it is in MoP, but chances are it became a spell just like AS and J. They probably re-thought the "melee attacks with long ranges and spell damage" paradigm and decided that with spells critting at 2x and expertise affecting spell hit, it would be more logical to just make these abilities spells.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Schroom » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:35 am

so in Cata cloak is useless, whereas in MoP it should immune the rogue if I understand it right?
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:44 am

lythac wrote:Level dependent part of the formula can be found in Whitetooth's thread at EJ - Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm), below the first table.

Also if you hadn't seen on wowhead you can change the level part of "(2.46% @ 31)".

Thanks, I just wish I could have the formula wowhead uses to do the conversion. :D

Whitetooth's thread look like it will do the job but I'm having a tough time with one of the factors.

Please correct where I'm misinterpreting:

Combat Rating Formula

Percentage = Rating/RatingBase x H


Percentage - this is final add to the Attack Table for Avoidance (Dodge or Parry)

Rating - from the table above the formula or is that table the Rating Base? Seems like this should be the item's avoidance rating.

Rating Base - defined as the conversion at level 60 but I can't find a number anywhere labeled as such. I'm now guessing this is the table Theck referred me to?

H - makes perfect sense

Assuming a Lvl 40 character with 1 item with a dodge rating of 24, I end up with a formula that looks like:

Dodge% Gain = 24/(8.492307662963867 x ((40-8)/52))

Which calcs to 4.592391 <> 2.83 as rated in the wowhead database.

This is making me crazier!!!
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby tlitp » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:42 am

You just can't be bothered to extract those from SimC's guts, right ? :lol:

Code: Select all
dodge/parry
13.800001144409180
expertise/physical hit
9.379311561584473
spell hit
8
mastery/physical crit/spell crit
14
physical haste/spell haste
10

24 dodge @40 equals 2.826%, before DR().
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:39 pm

tlitp wrote:You just can't be bothered to extract those from SimC's guts, right ? :lol:


Sorry :oops:

When I saw the table, I realized there were 85 values and assumed that the modifier would be per level. In reality, the (P_Lvl - 8 )/52) does all the scaling.

Using the level 60 value solved the problem. Also made Whitetooth's notation much clearer.

Thanks for being patient and supportive.
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