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Agility gems ever worth it?

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Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:31 pm

Blue - Stamina
Yellow - Defense
Red - Dodge or Agility???

I see some people using Agility gems in red slots instead of dodge.Why?A bit more threat. A bit more EH. But a good bit less avoidance isin't it?I did some napkin math that say's dodge is a better value when compared to epic gems.

1 sta = 11.2 A (When you have thecks buffed stats)

10 agil = 0.192% dodge
10 agil = 22 armor = 1.96 stamina = 1/15 epic gem

10 dodge = 0.254% dodge (0.062% more then agil gem) 0.508259 = 1/8 epic gem


Basicly the 22 armor you get from an agil gem gives you 1/15 of an epic gem worth of stamina. (1/15th of 30)
Where as the extra 0.062% dodge from 10 dodge rating is worth 1/8 of an epic gem worth of dodge rating (1/8 of 20)

Of course I am ignoring crit. But I just don't see how to justify agility. Even if you needed the EH in order to survive 2 hits wouldent putting a pure stamina gem in there and ignoring socket bonus make more sense?

In terms of gem value 0.062% dodge is almost 2x more valueble then 22 armor.

If you don't need the dodge, then ignoring gem socket bonus (possibly +8 stamina) for pure stamina gems. You gain a net 7 stamina (15-8). That's 78.4 armor instead of the 22 armor and 0.192% dodge 10 agil would give you.

EH = gem stamina
Avoidance = gem dodge

I don't see any middle ground for agility.
Last edited by Threatco on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Gemming in 3.2

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:37 pm

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Re: Gemming in 3.2

Postby Arcand » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:31 pm

Synopsis of those three threads: agility gives about 83% as much dodge as dodge rating does, point for point.

Agility is scaled up by Kings, contributes a bit of armor and a bit of melee crit. Agility and dodge rating are equally affected by diminishing returns. All the cool kids are switching to agility.
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Re: Gemming in 3.2

Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:06 pm

Arcand wrote:Agility and dodge rating are equally affected by diminishing returns.


To elaborate: as you gain more dodge, you will still get 83% as much dodge from agility as you would from dodge rating, relatively speaking.

Absolutely speaking, the more dodge you already have (and thus the harder diminishing returns hit), the less dodge you'll "lose" from using agility over dodge and then the extra armour and crit start looking interesting.
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Re: Gemming in 3.2

Postby Threatco » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:15 pm

Is the armor going to reduce over all damage more then the avoidance I am losing on most hard mode 25 bosses?

If there was a time I could get 2 shot I would buy it, but as long as I have a good EH buffer, the more avoidance seems like the way to go.
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Re: Gemming in 3.2

Postby Corpsicle » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:48 pm

I like looking in game at rating buster to really evaluate the difference between dodge and agility gems. For me, it is a difference of .03% avoidance with out Kings. I have 5 agi/stam gems in my normal tank set - so that is a total difference of .15% dodge, less with kings. From each agi/stam gem I also get .19% crit so that is .95% crit total which is worth a bit less than 46 TPS (based on Conviction being worth 46.9 TPS per talent point spent). The armor from the 50 extra agility is not much, but it is a nice bonus.

I refuse to believe that the .15% less dodge from using the 5 agi/stam gems instead of dodge/stam gems is a make or break thing. Then again, the minor tps boost and minor armor boost are not going to be make or break either - just a situation of "more bang for the buck" and better scaling/synergy with raid buffs.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:38 pm

It looks like Agility gives almost half the "bang for the buck" in tanking stats over all and less EH then gemming pure stamina.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Corpsicle » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:31 pm

I suppose that depends on what you are going for - threat, avoidance, EH, or some balanced combination. If you have a red socket and you specifically want the socket bonus, then you are looking at Shifting Dreadstone (agi/stam), Regal Dreadstone (dodge/stam), Sovereign Dreadstone (strength/stam), or Nightmare Tears (10 to all stats, unique equipped). Shifting is threat/EH/avoidance and has the highest EH of the options given. Regal is avoidance/EH but with less EH than Shifting and no threat component. Soverign Dreadstone is threat/EH with higher threat, lower EH, and no avoidance component. Nightmare Tears are the highest threat choice with the least amount of EH but with comparable avoidance to the Shifting Dreadstone.

This of course assumes you want a hybrid X/Stamina gem. You have better threat options in Bold cuts and better avoidance in Subtle or Delicate cuts, at the cost of the 15 stamina from the hybrid cuts. Choosing which cut to go for pretty much depends on what you are trying to get out of your set of gear. I generally gear for EH, followed by Threat, so I chose to go with the Shifting Dreadstone as I get both out of it, as well as some avoidance.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Threatco » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:10 pm

I suppose that depends on what you are going for - threat, avoidance, EH, or some balanced combination. If you have a red socket and you specifically want the socket bonus, then you are looking at Shifting Dreadstone (agi/stam), Regal Dreadstone (dodge/stam), Sovereign Dreadstone (strength/stam), or Nightmare Tears (10 to all stats, unique equipped). Shifting is threat/EH/avoidance and has the highest EH of the options given. Regal is avoidance/EH but with less EH than Shifting and no threat component. Soverign Dreadstone is threat/EH with higher threat, lower EH, and no avoidance component. Nightmare Tears are the highest threat choice with the least amount of EH but with comparable avoidance to the Shifting Dreadstone.

This of course assumes you want a hybrid X/Stamina gem. You have better threat options in Bold cuts and better avoidance in Subtle or Delicate cuts, at the cost of the 15 stamina from the hybrid cuts. Choosing which cut to go for pretty much depends on what you are trying to get out of your set of gear. I generally gear for EH, followed by Threat, so I chose to go with the Shifting Dreadstone as I get both out of it, as well as some avoidance.


I see what you mean.

Agility gems have a bit of everything at a cost to itemization.

It doesen't make sense to me because your giving up either avoidance for EH. Or a greater amount of EH for a smaller amount of EH. There is never a situation where you would want to gem agility.

Compared to gemming agility:
Gemming for dodge gives you more avoidance.
Ignoring gem socket bonus (even if the bonus is stamina) gives you more EH.

Gemming agility gives you a bit of both. But the sum armor and the avoidance is not equal in terms of gem itemizations to any other gemming option.



Theoretical case.

I have 40000 health. Boss hits for 20001 damage.

In this case I would rather gem agility as it gives me just enough armor to survive 2 hits. And the rest of the itemization is in dodge. If I went pure stamina gemming I would be going over-kill on my EH. If I got 0 EH I would risk being 2 shot. (this is the stack eh until you can take 2 hits philosophy)

But this type of min/max situation where Just a little armor and a little dodge is better then a lot of stamina or a lot of dodge does not make sense.

Since gemming agility is costing you over all, it's better to find other ways to reach your EH minimum.

Or at least this is how it seems to me so far.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Corpsicle » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:21 pm

I think the key is to only use agility / stamina gems in red sockets when you want the socket bonus - a situation that effectively removes the ability to gem pure stamina gems. In that situation, I believe that the agility/stamina gem is the highest EH gem possible. I would never gem an agi/stam hybrid gem in a blue gem socket for example - those I can meet the socket bonus while using the preferable Solid cuts.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Playdoh » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:13 am

The more dodge i have the quicker i would need to think about a parry gem instead of a dodge gem, so why not use an agility gem and get crit and a little armor from it, and not worry about parry gems at all.

If I am using agility then I should stay with agility because all of the little numbers add up.

Mixing dodge gems with some agility gems doesn't give you as much utility as staying with agility, or vice versa if you want to stay with pure dodge just make sure you keep track of the dodge/parry ratio.

That is my take on it, but it is one of those flavor things, one doesn't make an EXTREMELY HUGE difference over the other.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby JU1CYFRU1T » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:21 am

From what I have read, you are missing the key factor of DR.

You wouldn't stack agility over dodge if you have 10% dodge chance... but if you have a dodge chance in the 30-40% range, NOW it becomes a question:
Will that 10 points of Dodge still provide more EH than those 10 points of Agility?


I am not a mathcrafter, and I have no idea how to even start doing the calculations... but THAT is what people are talking about. As your dodge chance gets higher and higher, 10 points of dodge rating are going to do less and less. At a certain point, putting agility into the mix is going to give you a better return for the itemization points.

If I am missing something, please let me know. This is really just what I am "reading" from this thread, as I have a very limited understanding of the mechanics.
Last edited by JU1CYFRU1T on Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby kanst » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:28 am

You have to look at DRs and really do the math, in reality the difference in dodge between a shifting and a royal is tiny. Also most pallies, at least on my server, aren't matching all sockets. If you were putting agi/stam in every red socket the difference would be more, but I use 2 shifting dreadstones in my gear, every other gem is 30 stam, I could switch to royal and pick up a few 10ths of a percent of dodge, or I can stick with the shifting and get some crit and some armor
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Kelaan » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:21 pm

Threatco wrote:It doesen't make sense to me because your giving up either avoidance for EH. Or a greater amount of EH for a smaller amount of EH. There is never a situation where you would want to gem agility.


You can ignore the case where one would gem pure stamina. The only time most would use a dodge gem or an agi gem is when I want to meet a set bonus, generally, and thus you are only comparing 10 agi to 10 dodge. So, you get a very small amount of armor plus some avoidance, OR you gem for dodge.

I already feel, at ~55% or so avoidance, that I'm fairly close. If I were to use my red gem on dodge, rather than agi, I'd gain a miniscule amount of avoidance. I choose to instead get the armor bonus, since I've been trying to stack that. From an itemization perspective, though, your argument is interesting ... even if hard to follow.
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Re: Agility gems ever worth it?

Postby Viycktor » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:43 pm

Because we're Paladins (good agi-> dodge conversion) combined with diminishing returns and agi being affected by kings, the decision is:
Agi: mitigation through dodge and armor, EH through armor, threat through crit
Dodge rating: mitigation through dodge

Now, if you're looking to match a red socket and you want to maximize EH, the choice is pretty clear because the relative mitigation you lose from switching from dodge rating to agility is made up for by the armor increase (YMMV) AND it's the only EH option on top of that. The cost of switching to agility for DKs and Warriors is much higher, so they don't do it (although there may be a knee in the curve for them as well, it's just much higher than for Paladins).

Dodge is avoidance, but avoidance is merely mitigation over the course of a long enough fight - provided the boss doesn't one or two shot you. This is why it's not clear-cut as it depends on your current gear level, the mob you're fighting, and if you want more EH or more avoidance or more threat. And once you determine that, you need to look at your gear and determine the value of 1 more point of agility vs 1 more point of dodge rating - in most cases for post-Naxx encounters/gear, the agi comes out on top.

But one need not go to that much trouble.

The bottom line is: If you're trying to fill red sockets then agility/stam gems provide the most EH, dodge/stam gems provide the most avoidance, and it really depends on alot of factors which provides the most mitigation.

edit: I should be more careful. The EH and mitigation from armor only applies to physical damage (it won't save you from a Sarth+3 breath attack, but perhaps from the subsequent melee strike). This is generally equally true of the mitigation provided from dodge rating, except with regards to elemental-based melee attacks (I think) that can be dodged/parried/blocked, but aren't mitigated by armor.
Last edited by Viycktor on Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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