Remove Advertisements

Defense cap question

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Defense cap question

Postby Java » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:18 am

How does the defense mechanic work?

According to the established knowledge, 540 is the defense cap (or 689 def rating).

However, if I have a lower amount, for example 537, I have around 0,12% to be crit. If I stack more block rating to compensate this lack of defense, would I be inmune to crits? (blocked hit can not be crit?).

The real question would be... How does the atack table work? When is it determined that a boss atack will be a normal hit, crit, avoided, blocked...? When does the block mechanic act ?

My apologies if these are too dumb questions, but I start questioning myself lot of stuff, and maybe I am missing some basic points that I don't realize about...

EDIT: Obviously talking about physical atacks. I have realised that I haven't mentioned magic atacks which obviously would be able to crit since they can't be blocked, parried, dodged..

Thanks in advance.
Java
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:45 am

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:47 am

You're right, as long as you retain unhittability you can not be crit. However, you will be in trouble when you get stunned, silenced, lose your shield, etc. and as such it's generally accepted that maintaining 540 defense should be your top priority.

Also, before the angry frog comes in: there is no defense cap, only a minimum.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
Image
User avatar
Gamingdevil
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:16 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Defense cap question

Postby amh » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:44 am

NPC-spells can't crit :)

The attack-table should be covered in a sticky somewhere, let me see if I can find it.

Stacking block-rating till the point where you are passively uncrushable / uncrittable is
a) very hard. I've got the chardev-profile somewhere, but we're talking a very very specific gear-set and two specific professions.
b) not a good idea, because you have to gimp yourself a lot to accomplish it. Very little avoidance, extremely high defense at the cost of EH. This sort of becomes a controversy, since the idea was to push your block-chance high enough to cover the attack table, but you can't do that without going way past 540 anyway.

The reason why I say passively is that you can't always rely on holy shield.
I used to play a paladin.
User avatar
amh
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 6:25 am
Location: Oh hi

Re: Defense cap question

Postby amh » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:49 am

http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table

Have a look there, should cover most of it.
I used to play a paladin.
User avatar
amh
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 6:25 am
Location: Oh hi

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Rinanth » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:11 pm

Having a defense lower than 540 would also affect the returns you get on your AD CD. Remember that the amount healed is affected by your defense stat, so that arena prot can't get a huge advantage from it.
Rinanth
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:48 pm

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Veilan » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:03 pm

Java wrote:According to the established knowledge, 540 is the defense cap (or 689 def rating).


No. Like Gamingdevil said - that's a minimum, not a cap. More defense never hurts. Defense is a lovable, huggable stat, that just keeps giving. It's, depending on setup, the second best avoidance and the second best unhittable stat.

So all sing along, we love the defense, lalala...
Ythalaine - Die Aldor EU
Image
User avatar
Veilan
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Isetnefret » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:08 am

3.2 defense rating > 3.1 defense rating, IIRC.


I generally have 560+ in all gear sets.
Image
Isetnefret . . - . . Gavoryn

Those of you on the port side of the plane can look out and see the Grand Canyon. Those of you on the starboard can look out and see a cloud shaped like a horsey.
User avatar
Isetnefret
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Stoab » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:52 am

As a new Pali tank in training, when do you switch from Def to EH?

Or what weights does each stat have after the 540 def min?

I have been keeping 541 Def and then geming/ench for health after that. Some expertese and dodge.

Thanks for any info or guide you can give. I have been reading this forum all weekend.

Thanks,
Stoab
Tortheldrin
Stoab
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:46 am

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Isetnefret » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:36 am

I'd gladly dual you, as I imagine you have 10K+ more health than me.

There is no correct answer to your question, IMO.

Other people would disagree with me, which serves to justify my opinion, in kind of a circular way.

It's all personal preference.


You have to think about what a tank's job is when you're doing this. A tank's job is not to be a goddamn mana sponge for healers. Who gives a shit if you have 60k health? You will die faster than a PROPERLY geared tank, because your healers WILL run out of mana, because you're taking 10,000 dps worth of damage.


On the other hand, if you only have 20k health, and 99% dodge/parry/miss, you are still too much of a liability for raids, because you can be 1-shot (though, with AD....that might be a great build!).

If you have 541 defense in Tier 9 gear....I think you've done something wrong.


Maximize your TTL. Stacking health may not increase your TTL as much as stacking some avoidance as well.

What's better for a red socket?? +dodge/+defense orange gems or a +stam blue gem? Did you forget about the +dodge/+stam purple gem?


I have lowest health of any tank in my guild, but when the shit hits the fan, I'm the person they turn to to tank the encounters that give us the most problems.
Image
Isetnefret . . - . . Gavoryn

Those of you on the port side of the plane can look out and see the Grand Canyon. Those of you on the starboard can look out and see a cloud shaped like a horsey.
User avatar
Isetnefret
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Stoab » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:51 am

[quote="Isetnefret"]<snip> not much help, no real value


If you have 541 defense in Tier 9 gear....I think you've done something wrong.


Maximize your TTL. Stacking health may not increase your TTL as much as stacking some avoidance as well.

What's better for a red socket?? +dodge/+defense orange gems or a +stam blue gem? Did you forget about the +dodge/+stam purple gem?

<snip> [quote]

Never said tier,. seems as a new learning Pali it would not be tier 9. really.

No, I did not forget the purple gems. As I said, I have some other stats, use some dodge, block and exper and hit.

Just wanting some basic info on what areas I need to focus on as I build myself up. Some gear drops Def and adds avoidance, some add def. Do I drop Def gem/ench or keep tryn to keep def at 541 or let it climb to 560. I was woundering what Def level is a good place to be or just over 540 and then work on what next?
The number crunchn is hard for the non statsticly learned to read easily. Was hoping what I should look for next to build on. Let Def build or get avoidance higher and Def around 540 tell I get better tier gear with more def. Or is geting Mele hit capped nexed for me.

Thanks
Stoab
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:46 am

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Isetnefret » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:31 pm

You can be hard-core about the formulae involved and figure out what works best on your own.

or

You can gem/enchant and gear for a good blend of skills and hope for the best. (This is not a wrong answer)

or

You can get Rawr.


If used properly, Rawr can tell you if one piece of gear is better than another, based on your current set-up, and which enchant will give you the most bang for your buck.

Keep in mind, there's a high degree of familiarity with the program required to get useful information out of Rawr too, but at least it does some number crunching for you. It's important to keep in mind that Rawr may indeed give you false numbers, but it will consistently do so, so judging 1 setup relative to another is entirely possible, while judging Rawr's numbers versus real life may not be possible. It's not a horrible place to start though.



TL;DR

Unfortunately there is no right answer for your question. You can stack stamina for the easy way out, and if your healer is good enough, it won't matter.
Image
Isetnefret . . - . . Gavoryn

Those of you on the port side of the plane can look out and see the Grand Canyon. Those of you on the starboard can look out and see a cloud shaped like a horsey.
User avatar
Isetnefret
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Isetnefret » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:01 pm

Also, I think you misinterpreted my entire post.

not much help, no real value




Snarky:

I'd gladly dual you, as I imagine you have 10K+ more health than me.


The entirety of the rest of the post was completely sincere and intended to be as helpful as possible.

If you will notice, the summary is basically my opening:

There is no correct answer to your question, IMO.

Other people would disagree with me, which serves to justify my opinion, in kind of a circular way.

It's all personal preference.
Image
Isetnefret . . - . . Gavoryn

Those of you on the port side of the plane can look out and see the Grand Canyon. Those of you on the starboard can look out and see a cloud shaped like a horsey.
User avatar
Isetnefret
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Stoab » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:38 pm

Well the:

Isetnefret wrote:Also, I think you misinterpreted my entire post.

not much help, no real value




Was my responce to how will a duel help. Also, that leads to Resilance more than just defence. So I said no real help.


I have not made a 'style' of play as I am trying to learn what does what and develope a 'style' of play. I may have no style! Just beat me like ya love me style!

Eairly, ya just needed EH and not be dumb, ya can tank ret untill outlands. Then just prot with less skill gets ya through. Then at 80, for Heroics, def 540 is a very high priority. I achieved that and did ok, but I had spiky damage and hard to hold threat with some having so much dps. Getting into Naxx runs, I was hoping on info how to improve my 'stats' and what areas are best to improve. What helps with what type things.

So i was tryn to figure out the priority stats are to continue to improve on. I tanked K-T and the adds alone in Naxx 10, we wiped several times caus Mele got me blocked, peeps not staying out of the 'Circle of death' and even weak healers not able to heal 1 person blocked ( we had 3 healers to boot and I do K-T on my Priest with just 2)!

I want to learn where I need to improve, and and idea what stats are the most benificial in helping NOT to be a 'mana spunge' for the healers.

I will keep lookn through threads, just hard for a very old severly ADD person with eairlt OBS syndrome to read the lengthly data full posts and make good sence of it! lol
Stoab
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:46 am

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Isetnefret » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Sounds like you just need to learn how to constructively tell your DPS to pull their heads out of their asses and have better situational awareness.

and /range (assuming you use DBM).


http://avengingwrathy.wordpress.com/200 ... gear-sets/


That's a blog by one of the MT members. I love that post, because it outlines what I mean by no right answer.

I maintain 3 gear sets: EH, Avoidance, Block/Threat

I use whichever best fits the situation. I worked on Block/Threat first, which may seem counter-intuitive, except that at the time, m my plan was run heroics to get better gear for a EH set.

By the time I had the gear for the EH set, my Block/Threat set was putting me above our DPS in some Nax fights, and my survivability was just fine.


Now, with my Block/Threat set, I can run heroics with a ret paladin using FoL instead of Exo on his procs from AoW. It's good enough that in the rare cases I need a bigger heal than that, he can stop dps and spam a few FoL.

It's good enough to knock out 4-5 heroics in an hour...since you have 4.5 DPS instead of 3ish.

Just gotta make sure you take DPS that are higher than your own, and as a tank.
Image
Isetnefret . . - . . Gavoryn

Those of you on the port side of the plane can look out and see the Grand Canyon. Those of you on the starboard can look out and see a cloud shaped like a horsey.
User avatar
Isetnefret
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: Defense cap question

Postby Kelaan » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:02 pm

Stoab wrote:As a new Pali tank in training, when do you switch from Def to EH?
Or what weights does each stat have after the 540 def min?
I have been keeping 541 Def and then geming/ench for health after that. Some expertese and dodge.


I'd like to get back to this. There's a great thread in the main forum which covers this very well:

The Point of No More Stam

Basically, your goals are:
1) Uncrittable. (>= 540 defense)
2) Enough Effective Health to survive a resonable burst before your healers heal you back to full. Some bosses hit harder than others. A good rule of thumb is, be able to survive two hits in a row with no big heals.
3) Once you can survive a reasonable burst, More Health doesn't help (unless your healers have a brain fart, which nothing helps). So, at this point, you can add avoidance or other mitigation in lieu of health. This makes you take less damage overall, which makes you easier to heal, and your healers then can be more efficient in their healing. This is what lets your raid transition from 6 healers to 5, eventually, for example.

If you can reach 30k health, buffed, you've enough health for most of Naxxramas/25. If you're at 30k unbuffed, you should be able to tank anything in Naxx. Stamina tends to be mostly similar across gear from the same item level - the only way really to change that is gemming, or trinkets, and so on. Because that's "enough", we tend to use hybrid stam/def or dodge/stam or agi/stam gems for non-blue slots when we're not on "progression content"... but, when we start facing things that hit hard enough that we need to prioritize effective health again, we often break out the stam gems across the board (excepting meta requirements or good bonuses). If you need defense, try putting def/stam in slots that you need bonuses for, or even for ones you don't -- and if necessary use pure def gems. You probably won't need to do this, though, especially with the TONS of good gear you can get with heroics. (408 badges buys you nearly a full suit of great gear.)
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4036
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Next

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?