[Q] Diminishing Returns

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

[Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby yukei » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:35 pm

So my question is about diminishing returns, I know what it is, but I dont' exactly understand how it applies to parry and dodge. Right now, I have two main questions:

1 ) First question is simple, how does it apply to parry/dodge?
2 ) Second question is...I've researched on a few forums, including this one, the opinions is really varied whether to get dodge or parry. I've been told that dodge is better less rating is required to achieve the same % of dodge, however, I've also been told to get some parry due to diminishing returns. I am really confused here, help is appreciated :)

thanks in advance.
yukei
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:31 pm

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby amh » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:45 pm

yukei wrote:So my question is about diminishing returns, I know what it is, but I dont' exactly understand how it applies to parry and dodge. Right now, I have two main questions:

1 ) First question is simple, how does it apply to parry/dodge?
2 ) Second question is...I've researched on a few forums, including this one, the opinions is really varied whether to get dodge or parry. I've been told that dodge is better less rating is required to achieve the same % of dodge, however, I've also been told to get some parry due to diminishing returns. I am really confused here, help is appreciated :)

thanks in advance.


Note: This is only true pre-3.2. The numbers will change, and I haven't been paying attention to the math flying around here.

1) Right from your very first point of dodge-rating, you're affected by diminishing returns. Essentially it means that for every single point of rating you add, you gain slightly less benefit from the next point. DR affects the different types of avoidance in separate ways.

-The DR on dodge is the friendliest of them, you'll need quite a lot of rating before you feel like you're running uphill in the snow with two eyes closed trying to get the damn number on your character-sheet to increase.

- The DR on miss gained from defense past base level is terrible. Defense is still an all right avoidance-stat, but only because it affects miss, dodge and parry. If it only affected miss, it would be horrible.

- The DR on parry is rather painful. It won't stab you repeatedly in the eye with a blunt object, but it's bad enough that an item with for example 90 dodge-rating would for most people give more avoidance than an item with 45 dodge-rating + 50 parry-rating.

2) Nah. 1 point of parry-rating will give more avoidance than 1 point of dodge-rating when you have 0 parry-rating and 700 dodge-rating on your gear. It's probably possible to put together such a set, I haven't seen anyone with those stats.

Don't get me wrong, you don't have to shy away from parry-rating, just don't gem for it. As your gear improves, you will find items with enough parry+dodge to give more avoidance than your dodge+hit gear. It's often a tight call on similar item-level gear, though.

In this case, dodge < dodge+parry:
Tormented Rage -> T8 chest

but here, dodge+parry < dodge because the DR on parry is a bit heavier:
T7 badge-belt -> Razorscale belt

Yes, different item-level, but you get the idea :)
Last edited by amh on Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I used to play a paladin.
User avatar
amh
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 6:25 am
Location: Oh hi

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby amh » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:58 pm

If you need to determine the changes your character would go through by replacing an item, you should run it through chardev. It makes it easy to decide dodge vs dodge+parry.
I used to play a paladin.
User avatar
amh
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 6:25 am
Location: Oh hi

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Mert » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:13 am

For working out which is better post-3.2, Theck did some analysis and came up with the following:

Code: Select all
(character_sheet_dodge_% - 10 ) / (character_sheet_parry_% - 10) = 1.88


If your personal ratio comes out above 1.88 parry will be better, and if it's below 1.88 dodge will be better.


Only for use after 3.2 hits, but worth mentioning all the same.
User avatar
Mert
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:38 pm

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby hipponaut » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:47 am

I have a little different issue. In my current tanking set I have 21.52% parry chance and "only" 24.89% dodge chance and I would like to know if I got to the point where "I have too much parry rating and diminishing returns are starting to hurt." I would love to reduce the parry and get dodge instead but I just can't. Unless I wanna gimp my other stats by replacing my gear with some lower iLvls.

So, should I be worried about having too much parry? I don't gem for it or anything, it just comes with the gear.

And also a separate question. Block seems useless in Ulduar so I stopped caring about it and I'm not block capped anymore. Do you think it's a problem? Should be trying to stay block capped at all costs? My combined "avoidance" is currently at 98% (including Holy Shield).

My Armory.
hipponaut
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:42 pm

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Arees » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:54 am

hipponaut wrote:And also a separate question. Block seems useless in Ulduar so I stopped caring about it and I'm not block capped anymore. Do you think it's a problem? Should be trying to stay block capped at all costs? My combined "avoidance" is currently at 98% (including Holy Shield).


if that 98% is unbuffed you are probably still hit capped. Horn of winter, kings, and gift of the wild is likely another 2.5% dodge, and you should have a boomkin keeping up the 3% miss debuff.
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:31 am

WATERBOYsh wrote:and you should have a boomkin keeping up the 3% miss debuff.


Haha, you're hilarious, you try finding me a boomkin that's willing to do that.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
Image
User avatar
Gamingdevil
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:16 am
Location: Belgium

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:18 pm

Gamingdevil wrote:Haha, you're hilarious, you try finding me a boomkin that's willing to do that.

I do it on my boomkin alt. But having a tank as a main might make me a biased sample.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7851
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:38 am

theckhd wrote:
Gamingdevil wrote:Haha, you're hilarious, you try finding me a boomkin that's willing to do that.

I do it on my boomkin alt. But having a tank as a main might make me a biased sample.


Me too on my Boomkin alt. In fact all the boomkin in our guild do it as standard, they accept less DPS for more raid survivability is the way to go.
Sabindeus wrote:I feel like I should get a t-shirt made for me that says "Not Socially Awkward, Just Fat".

Brekkie wrote:The world will always need people to dig ditches.
User avatar
Barathorn
Moderator
 
Posts: 7104
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:08 am
Location: Hitting Panda's over the head with a cricket bat shouting Get Orf My Lawn!

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Arees » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:20 am

Gamingdevil wrote:
WATERBOYsh wrote:and you should have a boomkin keeping up the 3% miss debuff.


Haha, you're hilarious, you try finding me a boomkin that's willing to do that.


Our boomkin keeps it up for me.
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Awyndel » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:30 am

Does anybody know an article I could link to my boomkin to convince him. Coz even bringing it up ( for the 600th time ) makes him hostile.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Arees » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:38 am

Awyndel wrote:Does anybody know an article I could link to my boomkin to convince him. Coz even bringing it up ( for the 600th time ) makes him hostile.


I just explained that if she doesn't keep it up, then theres a chance that a hit could hit me for 1800ish more damage. Explain it to your RL too, and if you have problems convincing the boomkin, then maybe your RL can lay down the law =D
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:58 pm

Rather, explain it to the RL, and if the RL is serious about his job, the Boomkin will have a hard job justifying his presence in raid.

That's how it would work for us at least.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13381
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Isetnefret » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:14 am

What if you have no raiding boomkins?

Is it acceptable as a RL (me) to force hunters to use Scorpid Sting??

I tried "suggesting" it, and got a lot of blowback over lower DPS. They claim it lowers them so much that their suck DPS would not justify a spot in the raid.

Not knowing a damn thing about hunters....I don't know if this is true.
Image
Isetnefret . . - . . Gavoryn

Those of you on the port side of the plane can look out and see the Grand Canyon. Those of you on the starboard can look out and see a cloud shaped like a horsey.
User avatar
Isetnefret
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:48 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: [Q] Diminishing Returns

Postby Arees » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:17 am

Isetnefret wrote:What if you have no raiding boomkins?

Is it acceptable as a RL (me) to force hunters to use Scorpid Sting??

I tried "suggesting" it, and got a lot of blowback over lower DPS. They claim it lowers them so much that their suck DPS would not justify a spot in the raid.

Not knowing a damn thing about hunters....I don't know if this is true.


I don't know much about hunters either, but I know boomkins have the lowest dps loss from keeping the debuff up.
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Next

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest