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53/18... still worth it?

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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Jonesy » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:57 am

theckhd wrote:I think what you really meant to say is that some of the time, the extra healing you receive from Divinity is useful. Unfortunately, that "some of the time" is fairly rare, since it's only when you're experiencing a drop in healing throughput that it becomes a useful talent.


On the other hand that's exactly when you're likely to die. Dying to "burst" is a bit of a misnomer - I haven't died to being one-shot since Brutallus. What tanks die to is burst during healer pressure (moving out of shadow crash/silenced from Freya). Most healers will tell you that Patchwerk is an easierfight to execute than Vezax, despite burst being higher.

I have Divinity but I'm not enamoured of it (actually took it for Vezax and haven't bothered to spec back into AD, since we're having a summer recess) - but to present it as a bandaid for healers whose only healing problem is pressing buttons fast enough is to ignore the reality of encounter design.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:40 am

Jonesy wrote:On the other hand that's exactly when you're likely to die. Dying to "burst" is a bit of a misnomer - I haven't died to being one-shot since Brutallus. What tanks die to is burst during healer pressure (moving out of shadow crash/silenced from Freya). Most healers will tell you that Patchwerk is an easierfight to execute than Vezax, despite burst being higher.

I have Divinity but I'm not enamoured of it (actually took it for Vezax and haven't bothered to spec back into AD, since we're having a summer recess) - but to present it as a bandaid for healers whose only healing problem is pressing buttons fast enough is to ignore the reality of encounter design.

Well, yes and no. Obviously healers will have to move, and you'll experience a drop in throughput. But Divinity won't save you if you don't get big heals because your healers have to move. That's the primary problem. It's a throughput talent in a world where throughput isn't an issue. The way encounters are currently designed, the tank needs large heals very quickly to prevent getting 2- or 3-shot by the boss. 5% of a HoT won't save you in the face of that sort of damage output, and 5% of a big heal that tops you off is wasted. I seem to remember Dorvan saying that if it gave your healers 5% haste, it'd be a great talent, for that reason - in the current environment you care that a heal lands, not that it's 5% larger.

It's a stark contrast to what I remember of healing in classic and BC heroics. A tank could take 4 or 5 hits before dying in many of those cases, so as a healer I could vary the size of my heals reactively to keep the tank alive. In that scenario, a 5% healing talent would actually be reasonably good, because it would translate into more mana efficiency or fewer healers on a tank. In a scenario where you need to top the tank off after every hit, because the second hit will kill him or her, it's far less effective.

It's also fairly under-budget as a talent. We'd likely all agree that 15% STR and 5% parry are much stronger than 5% healing taken, and both of those talents are also in the first tier. Once you subtract out the overhealing, Divinity is probably in the same ballpark as the Blood Draining enchant for healing efficiency and wipe prevention. But one of them is an enchant, and one costs 5 talent points. You could enchant Blood Draining and use those talent points for Crusade, and would probably end up ahead on both survivability and threat.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Jonesy » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:01 am

theckhd wrote:Divinity won't save you if you don't get big heals because your healers have to move. The way encounters are currently designed, the tank needs large heals very quickly to prevent getting 2- or 3-shot by the boss.


The first sentence is what I disagree with and the second sentence is precisely the reason it's valuable as a straight survivability talent. Most healers are set up so that "panic heal" + "fast heal" is *almost* as good as "big heal" and most tanks gear for very slightly over the EH minimum. I agree with the conventional analysis that maximising big heals is pointless but I'd suggest that propping up panic heal + fast heal to be as close to big heal as possible is worthwhile.

That said I'd certainly agree that next to AD it's the weakest talent in our survivability arsenal. The groupthink here that AD is mandatory and Divinity is worthless - when they operate at similar levels of efficiency in similar scenarios - amuses me, though. :)
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Dread » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:08 am

Jonesy wrote:I agree with the conventional analysis that maximising big heals is pointless but I'd suggest that propping up panic heal + fast heal to be as close to big heal as possible is worthwhile.


I'd rather let my healers spec and gear to be able to provide me with big, fast, useful heals than to waste 5 points that can be better used elsewhere in my role as the tank.

The vast majority of prot pallys in guilds that are completing the most difficult encounters (hard modes) do not spec into Divinity. I'd be greatly surprised if you could find me 3 Heroic: Firefighter-level prot pallys that have chosen to spend 5 points in Divinity.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Rivia » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:31 am

I have however over the past 2 or 3 weeks been getting an increasing number of complaints from healers (non guild ones in PUGs) that tell me I should have Divinity to help the healers and that I am specced wrong.


Tell those pugs to STFU and GTFO, and don’t take opinions from people you don't know or respect. I'm doing Hard Modes in Uldar right now and I’m not spected into Divinity and have no problems with survivability.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Kriskringle » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:47 pm

theckhd wrote:On the other hand, being overhealed is never useful. It doesn't generate threat or increase your EH or survivability. It has exactly 0 benefit to you as a tank.


For the sake of accuracy, I'd like to argue this point. I believe that overheals are potentially useful in at least three instances after 3.2, and two currently. Divine Aegis procs include overheal in the calculation of the absorbtion amount, Val'anyr shields do the same as long as the target being healed is not at full HP when the heal applies (i.e. a 10k heal with only 1 hp effective healing will proc a 1.5k shield), and the new Beacon will transfer overheal.

It's hard to argue that any of those things have a worthwhile chance to prevent a wipe (and the Beacon change won't help prevent your own death, only the death of the Beacon target), but the probability is, I think, non-zero.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Argali » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:02 pm

Kriskringle wrote:
theckhd wrote:On the other hand, being overhealed is never useful. It doesn't generate threat or increase your EH or survivability. It has exactly 0 benefit to you as a tank.


For the sake of accuracy, I'd like to argue this point. I believe that overheals are potentially useful in at least three instances after 3.2, and two currently. Divine Aegis procs include overheal in the calculation of the absorbtion amount, Val'anyr shields do the same as long as the target being healed is not at full HP when the heal applies (i.e. a 10k heal with only 1 hp effective healing will proc a 1.5k shield), and the new Beacon will transfer overheal.

It's hard to argue that any of those things have a worthwhile chance to prevent a wipe (and the Beacon change won't help prevent your own death, only the death of the Beacon target), but the probability is, I think, non-zero.


Good point, but it's not worth 5 talent points.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Dread » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:30 pm

Kriskringle wrote:Val'anyr shields do the same as long as the target being healed is not at full HP when the heal applies (i.e. a 10k heal with only 1 hp effective healing will proc a 1.5k shield)


Valid points, but I need to make a small correction on this one. The buff to the player holding Val'anyr requires at least 1 hp effective heal to proc, but once the buff is proc'd, all healing (including 100% overheal) is applied to the shield portion. Small difference, but an important distinction.

Still, none of those uses justify the 5 wasted points in my opinion.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby SellassieTanks » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:59 am

Great talk, but Ill go ahead and keep Divinity until my DPS makes me work too hard. Atleast its an easy choice as to where to drop points for crusade
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Barsine » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:32 am

Asterial wrote:I have however over the past 2 or 3 weeks been getting an increasing number of complaints from healers (non guild ones in PUGs) that tell me I should have Divinity to help the healers and that I am specced wrong.


Tell your paladins to stop spamming FoL tbh.

On a more serious note, the differens between having divinity and not having it is basically that your holydins' HLs will crit for 17.3k instead of 16.5k. Ie. the only class who actually spams such big heals gain a 800 increase in healing on you, the rest gain less. And well, I can tell you that those 17k crits will almost always be a 10-30% overheal, exception being a few hardmodes like Mimiron and IC where the bosses actually hit hard enough for a HL+all the hots to do their full healing.
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Jonesy wrote:The groupthink here that AD is mandatory and Divinity is worthless - when they operate at similar levels of efficiency in similar scenarios


No. AD reduces damage taken from ALL attacks, which can save your life. Divinity increases the healing on you, before or after the damage is taken. Unless you got really bad healers those 5% won't help at all.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Jonesy » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:08 am

Barsine wrote:Divinity increases the healing on you, before or after the damage is taken. Unless you got really bad healers those 5% won't help at all.


Unless you're claiming that your healers somehow never need to move out of fire then I think you should re-read my justification for the quote you selectively replied to.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby hoho » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:37 am

If you have taken damage and the killing blow is just barely bigger than your HP at that moment it can help. Had you had divinity that 5% extra healing just before killing blow taken could have saved you.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Worldie » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:06 am

The problem is that the likelihood of such event to happen (a hit where a heal landed one second before was 5% short of keeping you up) are fairly slim.

If it was something that occured often maybe i'd consider it, but wasting five talent points while probably they would have been more effective in increasing your Sacred Shield absorption by 20% looks better to me.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:40 am

Worldie wrote:The problem is that the likelihood of such event to happen (a hit where a heal landed one second before was 5% short of keeping you up) are fairly slim.

If it was something that occured often maybe i'd consider it, but wasting five talent points while probably they would have been more effective in increasing your Sacred Shield absorption by 20% looks better to me.

I went for the SS absorption. Only having to refresh once a minute isn't bad, either.
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Re: 53/18... still worth it?

Postby Jonesy » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:45 am

Worldie wrote:The problem is that the likelihood of such event to happen (a hit where a heal landed one second before was 5% short of keeping you up) are fairly slim.


This is absolutely true. On the other hand the chance that 1% more avoidance saves you (not that you avoid, but that you avoid a blow that would have otherwise killed you) is also fairly slim, but I'd never think of taking less than 5/5 anticipation/deflection.
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