vindication worth it

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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Nadir » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:16 am

Gamingdevil wrote:
serrasin wrote:Vindication is an auto-include for me. Now I just need to figure out how to get 3/3 crusade and the new SotP =x


Edit:

I may be going with the following if math and logs show that SotP is a net increase over Crusade.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#smZV0tAMuMusIufdxfM0b


It does, theck did it in the matlab thread. However, he assumed that Crusade only gave a 3% bonus. So if you're in an area where you get the full 6% it jumps slightly ahead again.

Yeah. For the Argent Coliseum raid, Crusade will provide 6% on all encounters except for the two Jormugnars. I think Theck might have been a little too eager to declare SotP "the new black."
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby knaughty » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:51 am

Ulushnar wrote:Ultimately, if it's a talent that helps reduce the damage I'm taking, I'm going to take it rather than rely on a DPSer picking it up, same as JotJ.

This.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby knaughty » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:01 am

Braundo wrote:
Jasari wrote: of the best mitigation talents in the game

So, by this, you are saying that Vindication should be considered as mandatory as JotJ?

If that is the consensus, then that makes my decision quite a bit easier.

Exactly the same talent tradeoff, IMO.

The two biggest "incoming tank damage reduction" abilities are:
• Attack speed slow.
• Boss AP reduction.

AP reduction is especially powerful against "special attacks" - current poster child would be Thorim's special. Wear one of those with no AP debuff and you'll feel a slight sting...

Both abilities are provided by other classes as well, notably warriors of all specs via Thunderclap and Demo shout.

While you can rely on someone else putting those abilities up, I'd much rather be self-sufficient. Is especially key when you're tanking multiple targets, and your current target is not the DPS target. IC hard-mode, for example?

Tradeoff from taking JotJ and Vindication is 4 talent points worth of TPS talents you can't pick up. This is a much smaller issue for just about everything. There's only two fights currently in-game where I'm pushed by DPS for threat:
• Hodir hard-mode (full frost resist gear = bad threat, massive DPS buffs)
• Vezaxx[10] hard mode (1/2 SA, minimal incoming damage = severe mana constraints).

Hodir we have a mage who breaks 20k sustained for the duration of the kill.... 4 talent points of TPS talents isn't going to help, sonny-Jim.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Candiru » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:45 am

Warriors also have difficulty talenting 5/5 imp.demo shout.

Feral DPS druids will normally have it, but most of them aren't pro enough to shift to bear, roar, shift back and DPS while also keeping up savage roar, rip, rake, FF etc.

(as an aside, would it be viable for cat druids to shift bear, use mangle(bear) and shift back when they are low on energy (since energy regens at a constant rate regardless of form now) rather than wasting energy on mangle(cat) when they are the only mangle-bot? Seems like that would get them more shreds. They could also use FFF (bear) for some free damage too...)

Affliction warlocks can keep up CoW with only 2/2 to max it, but that is a DPS loss for them over CoA and so unless you have no druids for FF you probably won't be using CoW.

Conclusion: We can get max strength demo shout for only 2 talent points and 0 GCD, which is the lowest opportunity cost of ANY class. We would be stupid not to take it.
Last edited by Candiru on Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby honorshammer » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:47 am

I did some testing with Vindication last night on the PTR. You can see the full report on my blog today, http://honorscode.blogspot.com/2009/07/ ... n-and.html, but here's the net net.

    Vindication procs from Avengers Shield
    There is up to an .8 of a second delay in the debuff showing up
    Vindication procs from melee swing
    It's a 'chance on swing' and can and will fall off.
    Vindication procs on Hammer of the Righteous
    It never proced from Exorcism
Last edited by honorshammer on Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Candiru » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:51 am

Is vindication a PPM effect? IE will white swings with broken promise keep it up all the time, and faster weapons be more random (TBC SoV-stylee) or is it a % chance on hit?

Does Avenger's shield ALWAYS apply it, or were you lucky with your triple proc?
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby honorshammer » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:32 am

Candiru wrote:Is vindication a PPM effect? IE will white swings with broken promise keep it up all the time, and faster weapons be more random (TBC SoV-stylee) or is it a % chance on hit?

Does Avenger's shield ALWAYS apply it, or were you lucky with your triple proc?


I didn't test with different weapons as everything I have is in the 1.6, 1.7 range. It did fall off when I was just autoattacking with my Titanguard. I would hope that with a full rotation, you'd have enough attacks to keep it up 95%+ of the time.

My test with AS was only to see if AS 'could' apply it. I assume it's under the same chance on hit mechanics as any other attack which basically means I got lucky that both mobs were affected.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:45 am

Gamingdevil wrote:It does, theck did it in the matlab thread. However, he assumed that Crusade only gave a 3% bonus. So if you're in an area where you get the full 6% it jumps slightly ahead again.

As an aside, I re-ran the simulations today for both types of mobs. The results are here, and pretty much assure that Crusade builds will be top threat for AC.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Dread » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:37 pm

Candiru wrote:(as an aside, would it be viable for cat druids to shift bear, use mangle(bear) and shift back when they are low on energy (since energy regens at a constant rate regardless of form now) rather than wasting energy on mangle(cat) when they are the only mangle-bot? Seems like that would get them more shreds. They could also use FFF (bear) for some free damage too...)


I wouldn't consider it viable, really. Not only do you lose out on 2 GCDs (even with the energy constraints, ferals stay quite busy on most GCDs), but you lose the white damage during that time as well. Adding FFF would just burn up another GCD and give almost negligible damage. That's my impression, but my druid hasn't been a top-tier geared feral since BC.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby trellian » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:31 pm

Honorshammer wrote:I did some testing with Vindication last night on the PTR. You can see the full report on my blog today, http://honorscode.blogspot.com/2009/07/ ... n-and.html, but here's the net net.


Could you tell me the exact name of the AD Debuff once you procced AD's cheat-death?
I'm assuming Vindication is the name of the debuff you put on the target...
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby steadypal » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:18 pm

Honorshammer wrote:I did some testing with Vindication last night on the PTR. You can see the full report on my blog today, http://honorscode.blogspot.com/2009/07/ ... n-and.html, but here's the net net.

    Vindication procs from Avengers Shield
    There is up to an .8 of a second delay in the debuff showing up
    Vindication procs from melee swing
    It's a 'chance on swing' and can and will fall off.
    Vindication procs on Hammer of the Righteous
    It never proced from Exorcism


also procs off judgement and shield slam...


i dont see this being hard to keep up 100% if your actively attacking the mob..
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby honorshammer » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:01 am

trellian wrote:
Honorshammer wrote:I did some testing with Vindication last night on the PTR. You can see the full report on my blog today, http://honorscode.blogspot.com/2009/07/ ... n-and.html, but here's the net net.


Could you tell me the exact name of the AD Debuff once you procced AD's cheat-death?
I'm assuming Vindication is the name of the debuff you put on the target...


7/24 01:11:37.468 SPELL_HEAL,0x010000000005B7DF,"Honorhammer",0x511,0x010000000005B7DF,"Honorhammer",0x511,66235,"Ardent Defender",0x2,10216,0,0,nil
7/24 01:11:37.468 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000005B7DF,"Honorhammer",0x511,0x010000000005B7DF,"Honorhammer",0x511,66233,"Ardent Defender",0x2,DEBUFF
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Wardari » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:58 pm

theckhd wrote:
Chicken wrote:Depending on your raid composition the Ret Paladin might be able to lose one of their other raid buffs in exchange for it though.


My attitude has always been that if it's a buff or debuff I want up 100% of the time, and I'm capable of providing it, I should. That means that whether I'm in my usual 25-man raid, my 10-man ulduar group, a pug, a heroic, soloing, whatever, I'm still guaranteed to have that buff or debuff. This is why my spec has HotC, JotJ, PoJ, and in 3.2 will contain Vindication.


I'm very much of the same opinion, I will certainly be taking Vindication in my 3.2 build - for the sake of two points which is effectively just 2% crit lost you give back to others:

- 5 Full talent points to either your feral Druid or DPS Warriors that they have to spend to order to improve their shouts/roars upto 574 AP reduction. Okay there's is an AOE reduction but most boss fights don't have that many targets anyway, nothing that HotR can't take care of and well trash, an AP reduction there isn't a big deal. Or 2 talent points for your Warlock specced into improved CoW.

- Giving back your Warriors and Ferals a GCD and rage to do extra damage (more for Ferals, specially if they're having to shift in and out of kitty to maintain this), we don't have to worry about losing a GCD and breaking our rotation as just our auto attacks can apply this debuff. Same goes for a Warlock, plus if you need CoE anad you've only got the one warlock you don't have to sacrfice there either.

- You're self sufficient, so if you don't have your normal AP reduction in the raid you can handle it yourself.

- Guaranteed 100% uptime, even Warriors and Druids can't provide this simply due to the inevitable resists - back when I played my Warrior it was pretty requent to get 2-3 resists in a row resulting in the debuff dropping off.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Jonesy » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:35 am

Wardari wrote:- 5 Full talent points to either your feral Druid or DPS Warriors that they have to spend to order to improve their shouts/roars upto 574 AP reduction. Okay there's is an AOE reduction but most boss fights don't have that many targets anyway, nothing that HotR can't take care of and well trash, an AP reduction there isn't a big deal.


DPS warriors should be happy to spend points here as there's nothing better to get for PVE DPS.

In addition, in TBC there was a cap on how much AP you could reduce from a boss, and it was only worth going past 2/5 imp demo if you used Curse of Recklessness. Does anyone have documentary evidence this has changed? I'm not claiming it's the same - I'm just saying the talent-point wastage argument might not be valid, and it would be good to see numbers in favour of either.

Wardari wrote:- Giving back your Warriors and Ferals a GCD and rage to do extra damage (more for Ferals, specially if they're having to shift in and out of kitty to maintain this), we don't have to worry about losing a GCD and breaking our rotation as just our auto attacks can apply this debuff. Same goes for a Warlock, plus if you need CoE anad you've only got the one warlock you don't have to sacrfice there either.


If you're threat-capping your DPS, it's more of a raid DPS loss for you to take vindication instead of threat talents, and have a warrior do 0.1% DPS less to apply demo shout. If you're not threat-capping your DPS then you shouldn't be going further down the ret tree than vindication anyway. :)

Wardari wrote:- Guaranteed 100% uptime, even Warriors and Druids can't provide this simply due to the inevitable resists - back when I played my Warrior it was pretty requent to get 2-3 resists in a row resulting in the debuff dropping off.


Vindication absolutely does not have a guaranteed 100% uptime. In the first place if you can't melee the boss for a period of time (XT, Hodir, Freya, kited Vezax) it's possible it will fall off. In addition, if it's a PPM system it always has a chance of falling off (however unlikely).

Secondly, I believe Fury warriors are likely to be spell hit-capped, as you only need 11.2% melee hit to be spell-hit-capped with a shadowpriest/boomkin in the raid. Even precisely hit-capped Arms warriors and Feral druids only have a 4% chance to miss, and most Ferals go over that a bit because it's usually suboptimal to avoid it with leather gear.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Candiru » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:08 am

Ah bit if you are threat capping the raid, a warrior can intervene targets on high threat to sink 10% of their total threat... much more powerful than 2% crit for you!

Let the warrior worry about your threat while you worry about the bosses attacks tbh :p
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