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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:56 pm

moduspwnens wrote:It's already in my Ret spec! I suck at Ret anyway, though.

^
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Horanur » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:44 am

What does vindication proc from? (Sry no talent calcs here)
Or more specifically, does anyone know if HoTR will apply it to multiple targets?
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby steadypal » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:06 pm

Horanur wrote:What does vindication proc from? (Sry no talent calcs here)
Or more specifically, does anyone know if HoTR will apply it to multiple targets?




currently on ptr, my testings has shown, AS has 100% chance to proc on all targets...

judgement has a small chance to proc it


hotr is about 50% proc chance

and shield slam is 33% chance..


melee not sure would refresh 4 times in a row or would fall off


so with all those proccing it, i dont see it falling off of anything unless ur kiting for 10+ seconds..
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Irascibly » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:32 pm

Not sure what you're all smoking, but I'm not seeing a DPS loss from gaining 2/2 vindication. Just a utility loss because we're additionally spec'ing SotP and lose Divine Sac/Guardian.

3.2 Ret Spec

However, if you don't want to bring all the utility, a raid typically has Totem of Wrath 24/7. You can drop Heart of the Crusader.

You typically also have a Boomkin 24/7. You can then drop Swift Retribution.

Even a hunter's pet typically crits often enough to grant Ferocious Inspiration, meaning you can drop Sanctified Retribution (more iffy than the other two, since pets die more often than players - safest to probably drop Heart of the Crusader, unless you have one shaman and 3 boomkins, which is typically the opposite of my guild's setup).

For prot, I think I'll be spec'ing like this unless something changes with threat talents (which you guys may already know about and I just haven't read, yet; mostly SotP).

Someone tell me what's wrong with either of those specs, other than missing DS/DG in the Ret one (which can be fixed by dropping one of the buffs that you'll typically have, anyway).

edit: On second thought, realizing you'd have to drop all but a point in Heart and Swift Retribution. Hard to go without Sanctified and get up to higher tiers. You could at least get Divine Sac with a spec like this: Nother Ret Spec.

Divine Sac is helpful, but not sure how often it actually saves a wipe from a ret or holy using it (though all at once can be significant).
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Thels » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:24 am

Irascibly wrote:Not sure what you're all smoking, but I'm not seeing a DPS loss from gaining 2/2 vindication. Just a utility loss because we're additionally spec'ing SotP and lose Divine Sac/Guardian.


Losing DivG, yes. Losing DivS, no.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... sion=10072

Only after you want to include Vindication do you come one point short.

Irascibly wrote:edit: On second thought, realizing you'd have to drop all but a point in Heart and Swift Retribution. Hard to go without Sanctified and get up to higher tiers. You could at least get Divine Sac with a spec like this: Nother Ret Spec.


Stoicism and Guardian's Favor over Swift Retribution?
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:35 pm

Irascibly wrote:Divine Sac is helpful, but not sure how often it actually saves a wipe from a ret or holy using it (though all at once can be significant).


I saved my raid from a wipe on XT hardmode with DS(+DG) just last night. It was an ugly kill to be sure, but we had multiple people under 10% HP during a tantrum in which I used DSac. Without that, it would've been several deaths instead.

I don't really see the usefulness of ditching some of your best utility for Guardian's Favor and Stoicism, two talents with virtually no use in PvE.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Spectrum » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:34 pm

I don't see the trade-offs for either spec to be so great as to not be able to ask a given paladin to pick it up. However, I expect most pally tanks will already have it, and there's always Demo Shout/Roar, so there isn't a particularly compelling reason to force a ret into it if they don't like it.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Lieris » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:42 am

This is one change I am very happy with because getting warriors or warlocks to spec for this has in my experience been like trying to get blood from a stone. It doesn't matter that tanks are dying, apparently winning the damage meters is more important. I've only ever known one DPS warrior to spec for improved demo shout and he did so with pride, he knew without him in the raid tanks would take a hammering.

Ulushnar wrote:I'm certainly intending to take it in my Prot spec post-3.2. Demo shout's up there with Thunderclap in the list of mitigation tools we used to pray for back in 2.x.


This! I still remember the bad old days, finally getting this debuff at our leisure wherever or whatever we may be tanking is such a good thing. I would spend 5 talent points for this, 2 is a bargain.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:22 am

Lieris wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:I'm certainly intending to take it in my Prot spec post-3.2. Demo shout's up there with Thunderclap in the list of mitigation tools we used to pray for back in 2.x.


This! I still remember the bad old days, finally getting this debuff at our leisure wherever or whatever we may be tanking is such a good thing. I would spend 5 talent points for this, 2 is a bargain.


Thirding this. Probably especially poignant to those of us who have tanked Brutallus.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby honorshammer » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:23 am

Lieris wrote:This is one change I am very happy with because getting warriors or warlocks to spec for this has in my experience been like trying to get blood from a stone. It doesn't matter that tanks are dying, apparently winning the damage meters is more important. I've only ever known one DPS warrior to spec for improved demo shout and he did so with pride, he knew without him in the raid tanks would take a hammering.


I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts your DPS Warrior was a former tank.

A wise man once told me, "Tell me how you measure your people and I'll tell you how they will behave."

DPS is measured by the DPS meter, that's why they act like it's all important. Tanking is Pass/Fail. Eitehr we live or we die and as long as we live, DPS really doesn't care how we did it.

DPS is a race, a competition every fight. You have to win the meter (at least consistantly top 5) or people start whispering the Raid Leader about having you replaced.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Lieris » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:06 pm

Honorshammer wrote:
Lieris wrote:This is one change I am very happy with because getting warriors or warlocks to spec for this has in my experience been like trying to get blood from a stone. It doesn't matter that tanks are dying, apparently winning the damage meters is more important. I've only ever known one DPS warrior to spec for improved demo shout and he did so with pride, he knew without him in the raid tanks would take a hammering.


I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts your DPS Warrior was a former tank.

A wise man once told me, "Tell me how you measure your people and I'll tell you how they will behave."

DPS is measured by the DPS meter, that's why they act like it's all important. Tanking is Pass/Fail. Eitehr we live or we die and as long as we live, DPS really doesn't care how we did it.

DPS is a race, a competition every fight. You have to win the meter (at least consistantly top 5) or people start whispering the Raid Leader about having you replaced.


He was yes and he still had no problems showing the rogues who was boss despite not having warglaives. :) That said I have come across plenty of former prots who switched to fury/arms who still refused to spec for demo shout (or blood frenzy for that matter believe it or not) and you were lucky if they applied the baseline spell at all. These were people who would do great DPS whatever their spec and be in the top 3 consistently, their place never under threat. It was all just e-peen. Don't get me wrong they've been without exception lovely guys but crumbs, this single minded attitude to their personal DPS was so counter-intuitive to raiding.

But yeah, whatever, we're self-sufficient now so all that crap is in the past now thankfully. Just have to pester the hunters now! :P
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Chicken » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:15 pm

It's in part because a lot of them think the AP reduction from Demoralizing Shout would be equal to how much it'd reduce a player's damage for. That's of course a form of stupidity in and of itself, but it's nevertheless the reasoning I hear most often when I ask someone why they aren't using their AP debuff.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Lieris » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:34 pm

Chicken wrote:It's in part because a lot of them think the AP reduction from Demoralizing Shout would be equal to how much it'd reduce a player's damage for. That's of course a form of stupidity in and of itself, but it's nevertheless the reasoning I hear most often when I ask someone why they aren't using their AP debuff.


I err... wow. *scratches head*

That's quite something.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:18 pm

I used to know a Fury warrior, former Prot, who'd keep Demo shout up 100% of the time and even Sunder / TC if asked to, but i guess he might have been the exception...
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Veilan » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:23 am

From all this speculation I deduct vindication is going to work on bosses in the future?
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