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So what is the actual defense cap?

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So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby rokkon » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:52 pm

We know the defense minimum is 540, but people consistently ask me for the defense cap, so I want to give them the defense cap.

My understanding is (correct me if I'm wrong)
Block is capped once you knock hit off the combat table
Parry is capped at 42%
Dodge is capped at 88%

So dodge is our limiting factor since stacking defense will still give you some (however minor or impossible) benefit until dodge is capped.

25 Defence skill = 1% dodge

So it seems defense cap would be around 2200 defense skill not considering diminishing returns. I think this would be an accurate enough number for my purposes, but I wouldn't mind figuring in diminishing returns if possible for the exact number.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby bub64882 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:44 pm

LOL. I will love to see the chatter erupt when you say Def Cap is 3500 def rating or something like that. :)
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby rokkon » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:43 pm

Ok tried to figure this out on my own :)

Using the combat ratings formuals I made a spread sheet so that I could adjust the dodge percentage to find out what actual percentage it yields after diminishing returns.

Using the spreadsheet I found on my character I have a base dodge of 15.83%. I have 11.74% of dodge on my gear but after diminishing returns it is only adding 10.78% to my base according to the spreadsheet I made with the formula.

So I started increasing the dodge percentage until I reached the cap (88.13% - base of 15.83%). It took a staggering 384.81% to reach the dodge cap after diminishing returns.

To translate that into defense skill you simply multiply by 25 since 1% dodge is equal to 25 defense skill before diminishing returns.

That gives us a true defense cap of 9620.20 defense skill, which is 45,363.63 defense rating unless I've done something drastically wrong here. These caps would be slightly different for a Druid.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby jere » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:42 pm

Well the thing to look out for here is that the DR function is asymptotic. So trying to plug in a value and solving for X yields a "NO SOLUTION" result.

For example, take the value 20574849 defense skill. That is roughly 822994% dodge before DR. After DR it becomes 88.120000% dodge. The dodge cap is at least 88.129021, so at 20.5 million defense skill, you still haven't hit the dodge cap. And you never will. You will continue to get closer and closer to 88.129021% as X is taken to infinity.

In short, the problem has no theoretical solution. You can only take a practical one (like figure out the absolute most defense you can gear/gem/enchant for, and that would be the cap until they change gear, add new gear, or take away current gear.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby rokkon » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:15 pm

Hmm I see what you're saying. The problem with finding a defense cap based on the dodge cap is that dodge isn't technically capped.

Where I messed up then was I subtracted my base (15.83%) from the theoretical maximum giving me a hard number I could actually reach, I assumed the maximum was a finite number. In actuality however you can't subtract 15.83 from infinity.

I suppose I could use the games mathematical limitations (the point at which it rounds the number up to the defense cap) to determine an actual number, however this would be a large, random and unpractical number (as if a true defense cap is practical in the first place).

Well I guess there goes that idea. I don't see any other way to find a true cap. Finding the maximum amount of defense you can have on a character isn't really a cap it's just a limitation caused by the fact it's not possible to stack anymore -- you would still get benefit, however so slightly, from more defense *if* you could put it on.

So I guess the only real answer is that the true defense cap is infinity. Only problem with stating this in trade chat is someone will undoubtedly tell me they have infinity + 1 defense.

Edit: Actually it would probably be more accurate to say defense is not capped.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby jere » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:09 pm

rokkon wrote:Hmm I see what you're saying. The problem with finding a defense cap based on the dodge cap is that dodge isn't technically capped.


Dodge is technically capped at 88.129021% and Parry is technically capped at 47.003525% and miss is technically capped at 16%. The DR equation asymptotically goes to some value for each type of avoidance. That would be the "cap". Dodge is included in that list. It has a cap too.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby rokkon » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:56 pm

I know what you're saying. I was just referring to the philosophical viewpoint that you cannot stack enough dodge to ever reach that cap, you can only come very very close to it.

This is contrary to other caps where there is a finite point you can stack to where that stat completely looses its value, but you can continue to stack beyond that number.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby Lightstrike » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:33 pm

Are you going for defence cap or useful defence cap, because realistically, the former cannot be reached or calculated, I'd like to see what the useful defence cap is though.. which to me would be increasing defence rating alone to knock block off of the table.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby majiben » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:58 pm

The literal "cap" pre 3.1 was roughly 1400 rating, that is the maximum defense achievable by using maximum defense rating in each slot and it has likely gone up a little. Course you won't tank in that set.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby jere » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:07 am

rokkon wrote:I know what you're saying. I was just referring to the philosophical viewpoint that you cannot stack enough dodge to ever reach that cap, you can only come very very close to it.

This is contrary to other caps where there is a finite point you can stack to where that stat completely looses its value, but you can continue to stack beyond that number.


Definitely, but I guess my point was dodge isn't unique in that form. That is true for both parry and miss as well (and thus defense). You can never stack enough of any of those to reach their caps.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby rokkon » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:15 am

jere wrote:Definitely, but I guess my point was dodge isn't unique in that form. That is true for both parry and miss as well (and thus defense). You can never stack enough of any of those to reach their caps.


I think we're on the same page :) I just may have used the wrong terms to describe what I was thinking. I may just use Maj'g number and explain it with the caveat it was prior to 3.1.

The main goal obviously with this is to make people think about what they're saying when they ask for the defense cap. I just wanted to have an answer for when I was undoubtedly called out for saying the defense cap is not 540 in trade chat!

I'd like to try and spread information, not misinformation so the replies in this thread have been helpful in many ways to me.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby gibborim » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:42 pm

Threads on how to be 'that guy' are always good >.>
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:08 pm

This set has 666 defense. http://www.chardev.org/?template=214500 Clearly this is a message from Blizzard.
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby Wolvar » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:08 am

The defense cap is 540 silly goose. :D
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Re: So what is the actual defense cap?

Postby Arcand » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:18 am

If we were talking about a continuous function the asymptote description would make more sense - but if we assume that avoidance values are rounded off to two decimal places as they appear on the character sheet, does that not help to nail down the "maximum useful defense" number?
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