Remove Advertisements

3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:58 am

Ok and I just have to put this out there:

The ardent defender change is TOTAL nonsence. This is not even remotely fair.

Because we can get away with gearing for 0 threat, add block to that, we have about equal EH to other tank classes, this is gonna put us way above them. And guess what, we got very high avoidance as well. Seems the bear and the warrior are getting the short straw once again. And the DK is gonna be brought down to our level.

And the guardian spirit thing sounds logical if you view is as a wanted cooldown. Except for the fact that is is not usable as a wanted cooldown because you can't chose when to use it, and it works only once. Where as last stand or some damage reduction works multiple times over. Besides on fights where you need multiple cooldowns and you're paladin is gonna maintank, you will rather use external onces anyway, like pain suppression hand of sacrifice or intervene ( i love warriors ) . You will be needing them anyway because usually anything below 30% is not gonna cut it.

No the guardian spirit thing is not gonna be used as a cooldown, it is gonna be used for something far far worse. It's gonna be used to PREDICT spike damage. Wich is the most op thing in the whole of tanking history. None of the tank classes get a free pass for spike damage once every 2 mins, wich does not involve them actually having to predict it, or respond to it insanely fast.


So in short, I like the extra EH, but I wonder if we really needed it. I hate the cooldown effect, because it's not usable as a cooldown, and still is gonna be the most powerfull tool for preventing random tank deaths ever in the game. So basicly we are not getting the cooldown we asked for, and we're being made so OP we will be the flavour of the month who's gonna get nerfed soon after.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:10 am

I disagree with you on the CD front and I think the DR isn't going to work the way you assume. I doubt that the entire hit that takes you below 35% hp will be reduced, only the part of it that takes you below 35%.

There's discussion in another thread about this.
User avatar
Jasari
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:26 am

I asumed nothing. Either way it's still a good EH boost.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:46 am

Awyndel wrote:I asumed nothing. Either way it's still a good EH boost.


Yeah, but not a "Paladins are THE go to MT and way ahead of all the other tanks" boost.
User avatar
Jasari
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby defeated » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:10 am

I hope AD works exactly how it sounds, it would finally give us something, something others don't have, which is nice because every other tank has something, something cool, and we well we were cool for a short time but were lackluster compared to the abilities DK and warriors have i think, like intervene Their shield bash/gag order, just so many crazy good things with warriors, i just hope they and Bear tanks get a buff to their TPS though, because honestly i think our tps is OP compared to theirs in every way.
defeated
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 6:27 am

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:14 am

defeated wrote:I hope AD works exactly how it sounds, it would finally give us something, something others don't have, which is nice because every other tank has something, something cool, and we well we were cool for a short time but were lackluster compared to the abilities DK and warriors have i think, like intervene Their shield bash/gag order, just so many crazy good things with warriors, i just hope they and Bear tanks get a buff to their TPS though, because honestly i think our tps is OP compared to theirs in every way.


That's one hell of a sentence! I found myself looking for a period rather than reading what you actually wrote ;)

But yeah, it does sounds cool and I want to be cool too :)
User avatar
Jasari
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:17 am

For the record, if you go to the official forums, the general vibe is that Druids will be the most powerful tanks in 3.2.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:23 am

Jasari wrote:
Awyndel wrote:I asumed nothing. Either way it's still a good EH boost.


Yeah, but not a "Paladins are THE go to MT and way ahead of all the other tanks" boost.


Nope, but the failed cooldown will make us least like to randomly drop dead though. Wich would make me the go to guy for me, since cooldowns can be provided by others.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:26 am

Awyndel wrote:
Jasari wrote:
Awyndel wrote:I asumed nothing. Either way it's still a good EH boost.


Yeah, but not a "Paladins are THE go to MT and way ahead of all the other tanks" boost.


Nope, but the failed cooldown will make us least like to randomly drop dead though. Wich would make me the go to guy for me, since cooldowns can be provided by others.


Oh yeah, I totally agree. Even with a pessimistic interpretation of the new AD, Paladins will be in very good shape if it goes live like that.
User avatar
Jasari
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:32 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:39 am

Would this be a good time to mention that block value comes AFTER AD? How would that work with stacking block value? No damage under 35% health? Is there gonna be an internal cooldown on AD?
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Sir_Onion » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:51 am

Now I am going to argue this, I mean nothing offensive and if I do seem remotely close to anything that is considered a personal attack, let me know.

Awyndel wrote:The ardent defender change is TOTAL nonsence. This is not even remotely fair.

It makes our Ad useful again and gives us a useful effect that acts like a cooldown that works every two minutes.

Because we can get away with gearing for 0 threat, add block to that, we have about equal EH to other tank classes, this is gonna put us way above them. And guess what, we got very high avoidance as well.

My answer to that: Death Knights.

Seems the bear and the warrior are getting the short straw once again. And the DK is gonna be brought down to our level.

I have met few really good warriors out there that can compare to my paladin friend who is the guild OT and myself the MT, but I will tell you this: A good warrior tank is incredible. Bears probably need a little work, and I don't have too much experience working with them, so really I cannot say. Dks, yeah over powered, they are fixing it.

And the guardian spirit thing sounds logical if you view is as a wanted cooldown. Except for the fact that is is not usable as a wanted cooldown because you can't chose when to use it, and it works only once. Where as last stand or some damage reduction works multiple times over. Besides on fights where you need multiple cooldowns and you're paladin is gonna maintank, you will rather use external onces anyway, like pain suppression hand of sacrifice or intervene ( i love warriors ) . You will be needing them anyway because usually anything below 30% is not gonna cut it.


Things like Last Stand and Shield Wall do in fact of cooldowns. Last stand having a 3 minutes cooldown and Shield Wall having a six minute cooldown (which you can get to one minutes if glyphed and talented right. Just turning it into a IBF) The thing that does puzzle me however is how you mention anything below 30% won't cut it. Now call me crazy, but when I use a cooldown I generally use it when I am below a certain percentage of health, like 50% or 40% or even 30%. The whole point of a cooldown to me, is to buy those few precious seconds so the healers can get me up.


No the guardian spirit thing is not gonna be used as a cooldown, it is gonna be used for something far far worse. It's gonna be used to PREDICT spike damage. Wich is the most op thing in the whole of tanking history. None of the tank classes get a free pass for spike damage once every 2 mins, wich does not involve them actually having to predict it, or respond to it insanely fast.


Maybe I am missing something here? But the thought of preventing a killing blow, (and usually saving the raid) once every two minutes if needed, is pretty awesome. I believe here you are arguing "It doesn't take skill" or something to that extent, and all I have to say to that is: I would much rather me (and ultimately the raid) staying up, then feel like I have skill. I know I can tank, and that takes plenty of skill.

So in short, I like the extra EH, but I wonder if we really needed it. I hate the cooldown effect, because it's not usable as a cooldown, and still is gonna be the most powerfull tool for preventing random tank deaths ever in the game. So basicly we are not getting the cooldown we asked for, and we're being made so OP we will be the flavour of the month who's gonna get nerfed soon after.


I would say we need it. We need -something- to make us more comparable to other tanks cooldown wise. We already have excellent AOE and MT threat abilities, we bring plenty of cool effects to the raid (Who wants kings? ) and we even have some abilities that serve the raid as a whole (divine sacrifice) heck we can even save a healer or another off tank by laying our hands on them. I have done that a few times.

This cooldown will be the last thing we truly need.



This was not meant to incite anything but rather have a conversation. If it was offensive, please let me know where.
Image
Sir_Onion
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:48 pm

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Meyrinn » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:43 pm

I personally think this will be too much. The tanks are all pretty much on equal ground for most fights. The imbalances are for when you are taking very large hits or alot of damage in a small amount of time. Things like Steelbreaker Last Fusion Punches, Plasma Blast in Hard Mode, Unbalancing Strikes. The Blood DK advantage for these is a combination of their larger health pool and cooldowns. Vampiric Embrace, 1 Minute Icebound Fortitude, Will of the Necropolis. They are correcting the 1 minute cooldown on IBF. If the Blood DK is OP now, we will be OP with the change to AD. AD will become the same as Will of the Necropolis and the only difference will be Vampiric Blood and the Guardian Spirit portion of AD. Vampiric Blood will be better in situations like Plasma Blast where you take alot of damage very fast and the extra HP will give you a duration where healers have a buffer. AD Guardian Spirit will be better in that it is automatic and you can't waste the cooldown. My healers are very adept at keeping me above 35% health except when those big hits come that they can't because its greater than 65% of my max health. The AD DR will be there for those hits, and if I take another hit that would have killed me afterwards, the free killing blow will stop that. I play an Priest alt and there have been numerous time where my GHeal was .1 seconds off landing and saving the tank, in those situations the killing blow save will save them and my heal will most likely top them off. In the end, it may all be fine. We don't know how things will be in 3.2. But based on Ulduar, this will be very OP.
Meyrinn
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:03 am

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby badgermonkey » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:18 pm

Our average boss fight on the true progress bosses in Ulduar (we're on the Watchers) lasts 6-8 minutes. This gives me several chances to "not die" from the AD change. Sure, most wipes aren't ccaused purely by my death, but by other issues (healers failing Flashfreeze for the lose?) so it's unlikely to prevent a wipe. It'd be nice for a random spike though :)
Image
badgermonkey
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:36 pm

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:09 pm

No nothing offensive there.

You mention deathknights have good EH and avoidance, then you mention them being nerfed. Think you answered your own question there.

You say the guardian spirit effect sucks as a planned cooldown and is very good as a panic button. That is exactly what I said, I just don't like either. The planned cooldown sucks and the panic button is way too op.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Tomyris » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:48 pm

You answered your own question too, Awyndel. As you said in the OP, it's a cooldown that works for one attack, rather than several as with Last Stand. The difference is that it always works for a very important attack. The only question is whether that's enough. If what killed you was a something like a second-late late dispel on Plasma Blast, it probably saved you from a wipe event that won't be repeated. AD CD saves the raid and kills the boss. That looks pretty damned powerful—maybe powerful enough to justify favoring the Pally above other tanks.

On the other hand, what if it's an event like eating a Shear? If the CD saves your life at 2 seconds into the duration, you're still looking at 5 seconds without any additional protection. You can certainly ask "is the new AD OP?" But the answer, per usual in tanking circles, is "it depends." There will be times when it saves the raid from things that Last Stand never could, even in the hands of the wisest and most prescient Prot Warrior alive. There will also be times when it gives you nothing but false hope.

I don't speak from a great wealth of experience in current content, but my impression from what I know and have read thus far is that the AD changes have a great deal of potential. I'm looking forward to it, personally. There's few things that I like more than abilities guaranteed to work whenever I need them most.

The only situations where I could possibly imagine it being flat out overpowered would be something like allowing you to survive a Meltdown and keep whaling on Steelbreaker. Somehow I doubt that will be possible.
Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I attack.
— Ferdinand Foch

Tomyris — Silver Hand (US)
User avatar
Tomyris
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Marching to the Sea

Next

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?