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3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Ceridwena » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:18 am

Glad I decided to stop in here before picking a 3.1 spec. 0/53/18 is looking kinda nice. Some questions, though.

Doesn't putting 2/2 into Improved Judgments mess up the 9696 rotation a little or were we only going 1/2 'cos we were tight for points?


Interesting seeing SotP fall off the spec. So, you're getting +8% Crit and +3% dmg in place, eh? Sounds alright.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:21 am

While I do like the 0/53/18 build - wouldnt it be a waste of points on imp. might? Not to mention I thought we were not supposed to spend 2 points on Imp. Judgements because there's no point with the 969 rotation?

My 10man groups has me as the only paladin and they all prefer kings and in my 25man group we have 3 pallies and one of 'em is a Ret with Imp might.

I still wonder about the Blade Ward enchant and how useful it will be, and if so wouldn't it be nice to pick up reckoning (which I know its a totally useless talent as of right now) if it help us with a net gain on avoidance on the long run?
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:23 am

Ceridwena wrote:
Doesn't putting 2/2 into Improved Judgments mess up the 9696 rotation a little or were we only going 1/2 'cos we were tight for points?



This has been asked and answered 100,000 times.

Try reading FAQs:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21932
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =6&t=21933
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby pryse » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:26 am

Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but why is no one getting Divinity? I mean having heals that hit you healing you for 5% more than it normaly does sounds like a good MT benefit to me.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:27 am

Wow Jasari, you are a bit testy today :P

Anyway....the answer is that 2/2 Judgment does nothing for your rotation, but the 1 point in Benediction isn't really needed either and 2/2 Imp Judge could be useful for trash or AoE tanking where you may not be using a strict 969 anyway.

Personally I'll be sticking with 1/2, but it's a reasonable choice either way.

As far as Divinity is concerned, the main criticisms of it are that it primarily simply increases overhealing, it's budgeted very weakly per talent point, and it is difficult for it to make a difference/it's effect scales inversely with the amount of danger you're in. For more detail, see:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21152
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:31 am

Dorvan wrote:Wow Jasari, you are a bit testy today :P


:oops:
I just get annoyed when people ask questions that are already answered in stickied threads which would probably take less time to read through then posting a new topic and waiting for a reply.

However, I do just kind of feel a little pissed off today. It's probably me knowing that I have a lot of work I should be doing right now instead of dicking around on these forums.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:41 am

mconeone wrote:FYI that build has divinity instead of DG. The thing I like about DG is you can toss SS on a random person and have a minute of reduced damage. It's nothing huge but the duration makes it much easier to manage.

Whoops, fixed.

Dorvan wrote:Do you rarely use Sacred Shield because it's always being put on you by someone else? If so, it's possible you'd want to reconsider now that Pallies can only have one SS up at a time, depending on your raid make up.

If you apply SS to yourself then DG is more threat per point than Reckoning....I have it at about 40 tps per point (assuming judgment substitution to apply SS)....based on about 2500 judgment damage per use

I rarely apply it because I'm always getting someone else's. I have 2-3 Holy paladins in every 25-man raid, and at least one is usually assigned to heal the MT only (read: me). Since there's should be larger than mine (unless things have changed), it makes more sense from a mitigation standpoint to let them cast it on me.

Is that 40 tps per point calculated before or after you subtract out the loss of threat due to replacing one Judgement?

Ceridwena wrote:Doesn't putting 2/2 into Improved Judgments mess up the 9696 rotation a little or were we only going 1/2 'cos we were tight for points?

I would still only be using it every 9 seconds. The 2nd point is optional, it may help very slightly for trash, but it could be moved to Benediction as well. Taking 1/2 Imp BoM seemed kinda silly to me, since I always have a Ret pally at my disposal. In the worst case, I'll let one of the others tank and I'll be the ret pally if we're short one night.

The other thing that I often see neglected is that while the second point in Imp Judgement if you're practicing perfect 969 (ideal case), it can be useful if you aren't. If you muck up your rotation somehow (by accident, movement, boss goes out of range, etc), being able to cast it one second sooner may help you slip back into 969 more quickly.

All that being said, it's probably a marginal benefit either way. I may even decide to move that point to Benediction by the time I get home depending on how paranoid I am about mana returns. Not that 5 mana per second is really that noticeable though....

pryse wrote:Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but why is no one getting Divinity? I mean having heals that hit you healing you for 5% more than it normaly does sounds like a good MT benefit to me.

There's an entire thread (in fact, multiple threads) on this already if you want a detailed reasoning on why Divinity is not a strong talent due to current healing mechanics. Short version is that if Blizzard tuned things so that healer mana efficiency were far more difficult, and smaller heals far more important, then Divinity might be worth considering. That is not the current state of things, however.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:43 am

Jasari wrote:I just get annoyed when people ask questions that are already answered in stickied threads which would probably take less time to read through then posting a new topic and waiting for a reply.

You might want to hide for a few days then, I expect the volume of such questions to be very high for at least the next week. Hooray for patch day. :P

(If it makes you feel any better, I'm not getting much work done either).
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Ceridwena » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:44 am

Jasari, I apologize. I've read every guide on the site, but didn't consider they would be updated with 3.1...

Dorvan and theckhd, thanks for the replies.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:51 am

theckhd wrote:Is that 40 tps per point calculated before or after you subtract out the loss of threat due to replacing one Judgement?


40 tps per point is the gain of one judgment a minute (in short, assuming you keep up SS on yourself regardless of whether you have DG). This assessment is thus situational of course.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby mconeone » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:58 am

Call me clueless, but does absorbing damage cause threat?

Also, how much more damage does a holy paladin's shield absorb? Does the 20% cover that gap?
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:23 am

Dorvan wrote:40 tps per point is the gain of one judgment a minute (in short, assuming you keep up SS on yourself regardless of whether you have DG). This assessment is thus situational of course.

Ah, I see. I wasn't sure if the absorb effect actually caused threat, and if so whether that's what your calculation was based off of. I think your wording confused me a bit as well. It's only worth 40 TPS per point if you assume you're keeping SS up on yourself, whereas I read it as a 40 TPS increase over a regular 969.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:30 am

Yeah, I see how that was a bit unclear. I meant "if you're applying SS to yourself anyway". If you're not, then it's worthless from a threat perspective.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby pallyberry » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:39 am

"Spirit: The amount of mana regeneration granted by this stat has been reduced by 40%."

Does this part of the patch mean nothing? Also when the patch started downloading to my computer it mentioned Intellect having a decrease as well.... with this in mind, Divinity would be a bad choice why?
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Inscrutiable » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:46 am

[Edit] Removed Because Noticed I was looking at a talent calculator set to level 79 not to 80
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