3.3 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

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Re: 3.1 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby Arcand » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:20 pm

Marvel wrote:It's been clearly established with the addition of the new Agility/Stamina gem in 3.1 that the Shifting Twilight Opal (+8 Agility/+12 Stamina) is the best EH option for red sockets (+8 Dodge Rating/+12 Stamina is best for avoidance). It's still useless to gem for Parry, but not Agility.


Where did you see it clearly established? (Link if you can, site if you can't?)
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Re: 3.1 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby majiben » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:52 pm

It doesn't take much to come to that conclusion arc. Consider your options for keeping a red socket bonus.

Dodge
Spell power
Expertise
Parry
Agility
Str

Of those options only Str and agility provide any EH through BV and armor respectively. Now it becomes a matter of which provides more. Let's get some base numbers to work with.

40k hp
26k armor
Block capped
2 hits till death and 3 hits till death scenario.

26k armor yields 60.98% reduction in melee damage for an EH of 102,511.533
17.6 more armor ( 2*8*1.1) yields an EH increase of 49.573
6.578 more BV yields an EH increase of 33.716 for 2 hits and 50.574 for three hits.

Of course this model is simplified and doesn't take into account things like inspiration but the take away message is for hard modes and most of 25 man ulduar agility is the superior EH choice for red socket matches over str. Now this isn't even considering the advantages of the Avoidance that agility gives over str.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby eia » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:09 am

I noticed your link to the advanced FAQ isn't working any longer, I got linked to some twitter-thingie. Might want to update it. :P
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Re: 3.1 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby Arcand » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:48 am

Majiben wrote:It doesn't take much to come to that conclusion arc.


Ignore me. I managed to look at that sentence at least three times and think 'survivability' where he was saying 'effective health'. :P
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Re: 3.1 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby knaughty » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:02 pm

eia wrote:I noticed your link to the advanced FAQ isn't working any longer, I got linked to some twitter-thingie. Might want to update it. :P


Works for me. :?

Re "agility > strength" my understanding is the maths supports it, but it gives me the heebee jeebies to gem Agility. I'll do some more checking, or someone give me a link.

In the process of updating the OP for 3.2 right now.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:03 am

Just some comments:
Knaughty wrote:Q: Why do tanking specs avoid 2/2 imp Judgement?
A: Can't cast Judgement more often than every 9 seconds anyway. Read Advanced FAQ for more info.

If you're going deeper in Ret for Vindication (or Conviction/Crusade), it's a reasonable place to put points for trash tanking and such. If you're going to pick up HotC, your only other options are 1/5 Benediction (25ish mp5), 1/2 Imp BoM (probably covered by someone else).

Knaughty wrote:Q: OK, I filled out prot, to 53/54 points - now what? I have talent points left over! Where do I put them?
A: SotP Basically every sensible build has at least 4/5 SotP. Best TPS talent - equal first for TPS, zero pre-reqs.

The calculations you're basing this on are for a "generic" mob, which sees only the 3% boost from Crusade. I re-ran the simulations today for both cases (link), and against Demons/Undead/Humanoids/Elementals (or "DUH bosses" as I've dubbed them) Crusade specs are still stronger.

Unfortunately this makes giving advice harder, but the short version would be:
If you're raiding Ulduar, then don't worry about Crusade unless you can max it out. Just fill in SotP and some combination of Reckoning / Conviction depending on what you can reach with the points you have left.
If you're raiding Naxx, AC, or eventually Icecrown, Crusade is the best bang for your buck, and you should prioritize it over SotP if you have the points.

The short short version would be "DUH.... Crusade."

While the 4/53/14 spec is nice for Ulduar, I'll probably end up with 0/53/18 again due to AC. It will only be 20 or so TPS behind for Ulduar, but will be several hundred ahead for anything else, and gives me exactly the same utility talents.
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Re: 3.3 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby knaughty » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:57 pm

Quickie updated for 3.3 shoved into OP.
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Re: 3.3 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby econ21 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:06 am

Under "What seal do I use?", I think you should mention Seal of Command. Using that on heroics - and to pick up multiple adds - makes things so much easier. I remember being told to use it on a PUG as a new level 80 tank and being shocked at what a difference it made when I tried it out. I think Blizzard have said it made our AoE tanking a bit too easy, so maybe this is a pre-Cat thing only, but let the new tanks enjoy it while they can.

"SoV for raid bosses and tough single opponents; SoC for multiple adds" would be my answer to your seal question.
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Re: 3.3 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby knaughty » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:48 pm

econ21 wrote:"SoV for raid bosses and tough single opponents; SoC for multiple adds" would be my answer to your seal question.

Tweaked.
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Re: 3.3 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby yappo » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:35 am

Do we still advice people reading the BASIC FAQ to use a tanking weapon rather than a slow dps onehander?
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Re: 3.3 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby econ21 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:19 am

Last: Build a Threat set: • Stack strength, then Hit rating, then Expertise. Block Value has diminishing returns, worry about it when you hit 3k.

Q: Strength, AP, or Spell-power for DPS/TPS?
A: Strength=Block > Hit > Expertise > AP You should never have spell-power gear on unless you're healing.

Q: Should I try to cap expertise or hit?
A: Only for taunt Glyph + 6%.
A: Not really. Hit is a nice TPS stat, +hit is also nice for taunt. Expertise is OK, but just live with what's on your best tanking gear, it isn't a great TPS stat for paladins like it is for warriors.


I think this stuff needs tweaking for 3.3. From theckhd’s matlab tps thread, expertise is now our best threat stat, followed by hit to cap and then strength. So for a threat set, I would try to soft cap expertise, get to hit cap (or thereabouts) and then stack strength.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p521995

Hit and expertise get even better for AoE (which is often what I would wear a threat set for: for bosses, I usually play safe).

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p523511
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Re: 3.1 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby knaughty » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:35 am

eia wrote:I noticed your link to the advanced FAQ isn't working any longer, I got linked to some twitter-thingie. Might want to update it. :P

Errr.. what? Works for me ™
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Re: 3.3 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby knaughty » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:39 am

econ21 wrote:I think <gearing priority> stuff needs tweaking for 3.3. From theckhd’s matlab tps thread...

The problem is that TPS values of stats are highly dependant on your overall gear level.

Theck updates his TPS graphs for each tier of content assuming you've in "current tier" content. This is great advice for progression tanks.

If you're in shit gear, expertise and hit aren't as good as if you're in awesome gear. I don't know where the crossover is, and don't think it's important enough to worry about when 4.0 is in beta.
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Re: 3.3 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:36 am

The main reason expertise got a boost in 3.3 had nothing to do with gear. ShoR became parry-able and started proccing seals. STR is probably better at Naxx levels of gearing, but expertise should take over pretty quick by Uld/ToC level - i.e. once you're done farming your badge T9.
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Re: 3.3 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics

Postby knaughty » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:35 pm

/sigh

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