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Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Olen » Fri May 01, 2009 7:03 am

I open the Auriya fight with Div Prot and Salv myself, then tank the first two kills on the kitties.
Our dps consistently breaks 5k on the meter and I use Salv whenever I need another mitigation cooldown.
Considering ptanks hold 6k threat while making coffee and posting to this site, you should really give this glyph a whirl if you've been scared of it. It's the best thing going besides DPlea, imo. Only drawback is in a taunting fight cause the taunted-up tank would surpass you if you Salv.

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Re:

Postby Dracora » Fri May 01, 2009 1:57 pm

moduspwnens wrote:I think it's more for PvP. I don't plan to use it.


It won't have a place for me in PvE content for Prot.

As a Ret pally this is smurfing godly when PvPing and when there's a lot of raid damage going on.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Funtodin » Tue May 05, 2009 6:10 am

Must-have for Mimiron's plasma blast in phase 1 if you don't wanna depend on external cooldowns. HoS 1st one and Bubblewall 2nd and phase 1 is over.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Olen » Tue May 05, 2009 6:31 am

Funtodin wrote:Must-have for Mimiron's plasma blast in phase 1 if you don't wanna depend on external cooldowns. HoS 1st one and Bubblewall 2nd and phase 1 is over.


/agree, very good point

If you want to tank Mimiron w/o someone else doing your work for you you'll need ze Salv glyph. One of our prot pallies commented that he didn't care much for the glyph before we went into Mimiron, that he hadn't tanked anything that required more cooldowns. Thankfully he wasn't in the raid. It's safer to save your BoSac and GSpirits for other things you don't plan for, than to purposefully start minus one cooldown.

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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby icesurfer7 » Tue May 05, 2009 10:47 am

Funtodin wrote:Must-have for Mimiron's plasma blast in phase 1 if you don't wanna depend on external cooldowns. HoS 1st one and Bubblewall 2nd and phase 1 is over.

you're going to use threat but if you macro to debuff it you should be fine,this is essentially for pvp but the use in PVE is very specific for what encounter you're going into;something like the minienrage on patchwerk this would be devastating,but another place like horsemen it'll save your other cooldowns for another point in the fight.Trying to use wings to counter the threat loss is counterintuitive to the point of lowering damage on yourself.if you're using this in conjunction with your bubble wall you're decreasing damage recieved. Essentially you should only glyph this if you're expecting a fight where you could optimize the use of it,otherwise you're best off ignoring this glyph from a PVE perspective.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby theckhd » Tue May 05, 2009 10:55 am

Olen wrote:I use this glyph religiously, especially since so many people doubt its utility.

969 rotation threat is so high you can use this nearly whenever you want. At the beginning of a fight your threat output is reduced to still way above a prot warriors. At the end of a fight you're hundreds of k threat above the dps. Yes that means you'll lose more total threat from the 20% removed....and it still doesn't matter. If the ptank has 1million threat and salvs, his 800k is still towering over the 400k rogue.

The only time I find it hairy is fights that involving taunting between tanks, like Kolo and RScale. The taunt will bring the other tank(s) to your threat meaning they'll be up your ass when you taunt back.

If you're a prot pally that can't salv himself you don't understand your rotation or you're undergeared. And if you're good to go on threat how can you pass up a 20% damage reduction cooldown? Don't ever QQ about other tanks having more CDs if you shy away from this one.

Use it, you'll realize its perfectly viable. Or come up with some good excuse.

-O

You're coming across as very arrogant in this post, perhaps unintentionally. But suggesting that someone that doesn't share your opinions is a terrible tank doesn't lend any validity to your point, it just makes you come across as a jerk. The issue is not black-and-white, and your attempt to suggest it is does not miraculously make it so.

The glyph is situational. It works, and there are specific fights where it works well. It really shines when you've had a minute or two to build up a big aggro lead, and can handle losing a large chunk of it.

There are other fights where it's useless. If the DPS are riding your ass, which is possible in many of the harder Ulduar fights, then you often can't afford to use it.

Mimiron is a bad example, for a number of reasons.
  • If your healers are any good they can heal through a plasma blast without any cooldowns. There's next to no raid damage happening during plasma blast, so all of your healers can be spamming you for a few seconds before it even starts channeling.
  • Plasma blast happens less than 30 seconds into the fight, which isn't long enough to build a huge threat lead. Using HoS on the first one is likely more dangerous than reversing the order suggested - Bubblewall the first and HoS the second.
It is by no means a "must-have," but it will buy you a little breathing room. Even 20% won't save you if your healers are bad though.

I've decided not to use it because so far I haven't run into a situation where I've needed it. I also have a pocket DK co-tank though, so on fights that are designed for "lolcooldowns" I can force him to tank it and dual-spec ret. It just doesn't make any sense to me as a raid leader to use a sub-par cooldown option when I have a tank at my disposal that's designed for this sort of encounter and has better tools to deal with it.

Personally, I think this is just a great example of poor game design, which contributes to my disappointment with the glyph. I might be more endeared to it if it were a larger reduction, but when the other tanking classes get similar-or-better abilities on shorter cooldowns that don't have similar drawbacks, it tells me that someone in the design department dropped the ball. It's annoying enough that I don't want to use the glyph just on principle.

That being said, I would likely use it if I didn't have a DK tank to throw at fights like this, or if I found a situation where I absolutely needed the extra damage reduction cooldown. The Judgement glyph is so weak that losing it for HoSalv makes little difference anyway, even if HoSalv only helps you in a few specific cases. Or you could always make a few stacks and swap them out fight-to-fight.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Olen » Tue May 05, 2009 11:18 am

I used it in the first 25 seconds of the Mimiron fight last night. As I've tried to point out, people who haven't used the glyph are scared of it because Salv makes you lose threat.

You lose 2% of your gained threat every second.
If the fight just started, you barely lose anything.
If you're deep into the fight, you lose a ton, but can easily afford to.

I use HoSalv on myself a lot OTing, and now that I take 20% reduced damage I use it while MT'ing. I've played alongside plenty of prot pallies who do not have a good rotation and thus should not use this glyph. My point is that I have no trouble with it.

For example: I offered 50g to the DPS who could pull off me in a 10man Sarth3d zerg kill. If you know of the fight then you know its basically 4500 minimum dps across the raid or fail. The top two put out 5800 and 5200 dps, in a fight w/o any damage buffs as seen in the Thaddius encounter. That's the type of threat prot pallies put out. Now, I probably would've been hurting had I used HoSalv that fight. If you know what you're doing this glyph is just another damage reduction cooldown. If you're low on threat then thats a different issue apart from the glyph choice, and glyphing a 4th hammer won't help you on single target threat anway. I guess you could take imp judgment.

Threat is a big deal to me because I tank alongside mostly warriors who only sustain 2-3k tps. Threat is not as big a deal for a tank as surviving, but if you play right you don't need the threat Salv drops off you. I know some tanks are touchy about threat and I hear them saying "give me time to hit the guy" or whatever excuse. I tell the dps to blow him up and if I lose him I'll try harder. Who improves if you tell the dps to chill out while you don't arrange your hands properly on a keyboard?

Give it a whirl before you crap on it because you think it won't work. The only time it gives me trouble is in a taunting fight because that brings other tanks right up to me and would obviously fail.

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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Panzerdin » Tue May 05, 2009 2:01 pm

I really wish a lock had spammed Searing Pain...
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Funtodin » Tue May 05, 2009 2:06 pm

theckhd wrote:
Mimiron is a bad example, for a number of reasons.
  • If your healers are any good they can heal through a plasma blast without any cooldowns. There's next to no raid damage happening during plasma blast, so all of your healers can be spamming you for a few seconds before it even starts channeling.
  • Plasma blast happens less than 30 seconds into the fight, which isn't long enough to build a huge threat lead. Using HoS on the first one is likely more dangerous than reversing the order suggested - Bubblewall the first and HoS the second.
It is by no means a "must-have," but it will buy you a little breathing room. Even 20% won't save you if your healers are bad though.


Mimiron is the probably the best available example. Yes, the healers can heal through without any cooldowns, but they might as well have a brain fart and those 20% will cost you one attempt. Plus, since it's real early in the fight, it's the best time to use it. You have a low amount of threat so the 2% a tick you lose hardly matters. On top of that, you can open up with avenging wrath, then HoS and go balls out. By the time the 2nd plasma blast is coming 30 seconds have passed and you're safe to use Divine Protection to save your neck again.
Regarding the claim that it's situational, of course it is. So is the bubblewall; or Ardent Defender. Would you pass on those, or trade for a major glyph slot (seal of vengeance, that brings nothing to the table)? HoS glyph is situational but it makes all the difference when its time comes. I'm not discussing game design or anything, just making the best use of the tools we're offered.
I guess the same argument goes even for Divinity. You can pick it up or simply accept a wipe and move on to the next attempt in that 1 out of 100 fights when it's actually useful and saves the day. In a perfect world healers are always on mark, tanks react flawlessly and dps move out of fire. In any other situation, I'll be glad to carry the weight of my bag full of crutches.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby neokai » Thu May 07, 2009 2:51 am

Funtodin wrote:Mimiron is the probably the best available example. Yes, the healers can heal through without any cooldowns, but they might as well have a brain fart and those 20% will cost you one attempt. Plus, since it's real early in the fight, it's the best time to use it. You have a low amount of threat so the 2% a tick you lose hardly matters. On top of that, you can open up with avenging wrath, then HoS and go balls out. By the time the 2nd plasma blast is coming 30 seconds have passed and you're safe to use Divine Protection to save your neck again.
Regarding the claim that it's situational, of course it is. So is the bubblewall; or Ardent Defender. Would you pass on those, or trade for a major glyph slot (seal of vengeance, that brings nothing to the table)? HoS glyph is situational but it makes all the difference when its time comes. I'm not discussing game design or anything, just making the best use of the tools we're offered.
I guess the same argument goes even for Divinity. You can pick it up or simply accept a wipe and move on to the next attempt in that 1 out of 100 fights when it's actually useful and saves the day. In a perfect world healers are always on mark, tanks react flawlessly and dps move out of fire. In any other situation, I'll be glad to carry the weight of my bag full of crutches.


Although the same point was made earlier in the thread, good job reiterating the point that HoS being used early will have the least impact on threat (since it applies total threat and not your tps itself).

Ok, now that i'm done praising your post, let me tear it down a bit with some clarifications.

Be clear on what "situational" means. An example will be Divine Sacrifice; its benefit is situational because in order to fully utilize it you need to use Divine Shield to prevent being owned, which is a no-no if you were tanking a mob. That's situational. Bubblewall is not a situational skill, it's an emergency button. The usage can be situational but the skill itself is an essential tool. AD too is an auto-reacting "save me" talent, although its efficacy is being questioned in another hot topic on this forum. Its activation can be situational; its benefit is not (assuming it can work as intended without being leapfrogged).
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby MrDuck » Thu May 07, 2009 4:14 am

theckhd wrote:Plasma blast happens less than 30 seconds into the fight, which isn't long enough to build a huge threat lead. Using HoS on the first one is likely more dangerous than reversing the order suggested - Bubblewall the first and HoS the second.

I'd actually use salv first, then DP on second. You know, you may not have that big threat lead, but you don't lose nearly as much threat also. If you have some 500K threat after 30s(well you wont but..), you'll lose some 100k and make it back up quickly. If you have 1,5M threat later on, you'll lose 300k.

Simply, 20% is 20%. IF you do 20% more threat than your DPS, it doesn't matter at all when you use it(when there's no taunting and such going on,ofc).

At start, DPS threat can be rather bursty, I'll give you that, but 30s is for sure enough to make acceptable lead(while mages are scorching and stuff,so they can't push their dps to max for first few secs anyway 'till the boss is debuffed fully) for the glyph, and you also don't lose threat all that fast, you just go down to 500TPS as you generate more while you reduce what you've already had.


Myself i consider this glyph the second best option after divine plea, but sure it's optional and everyone has different opinion on it. However, when i'm solotanking Hodir, i appreciate it during frozen blows (even though they're easily survivable with just frost aura, and he can be kited for the duration with PoJ), on Mimiron, Auriaya kittens, and definitely every time i drop under 50% for more than one GCD, or just whenever I can to lessen the damage income on fights where i know i won't need the cooldown and can afford the threat loss.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Funtodin » Thu May 07, 2009 7:51 am

neokai wrote:
Be clear on what "situational" means. An example will be Divine Sacrifice; its benefit is situational because in order to fully utilize it you need to use Divine Shield to prevent being owned, which is a no-no if you were tanking a mob. That's situational. Bubblewall is not a situational skill, it's an emergency button. The usage can be situational but the skill itself is an essential tool. AD too is an auto-reacting "save me" talent, although its efficacy is being questioned in another hot topic on this forum. Its activation can be situational; its benefit is not (assuming it can work as intended without being leapfrogged).


You're right in fact. I guess "situational" is not the appropriate word to describe abilities like bubblewall, AD or HoS glyph, because they can become invaluable at any given time during any fight. That even reinforces their importance. The term "situational" is probably better used for things like holy wrath, that has the potential to be a great perk, but it has no use if there's no undead target and has its capability reduced if they're not stunnable.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby theckhd » Thu May 07, 2009 10:56 am

MrDuck wrote:Simply, 20% is 20%. IF you do 20% more threat than your DPS, it doesn't matter at all when you use it(when there's no taunting and such going on,ofc).

I still disagree, both with this statement and (more importantly) with the statement that it's better to use it early because you lose less total threat.

Yes, 20% of X is less than 20% of 100X. That's not the point, and trying to portray it that way is overlooking the issue of stability. The best way to explain this is statistically, via sample sizes and variance.

Early in the fight, threat is spikey and less stable. If you're only counting the first 5 threat moves, and one misses, then you're losing ~20% of your threat. Similarly, if one of your DPS gets an unlucky string of crits that early in the fight, he can out-threat you regardless of how good a tank you are. Yes, you can out-threat your closest dps by more than 20% on average. But in the first 15-30 seconds of the fight, your sample size is much smaller, so a single attack can affect the mean much more drastically. As a result, the HoSalv glyph is far more risky.

Late in the fight, you should have a solid, stable threat lead. You've had your 5-stack up for a long time, and can very easily gauge whether you have a 20% lead over the closest DPS. This is where HoSalv shines. In a statistical sense, you have a very large sample size, and one large crit either way won't change the mean by very much.

To put it another way, while you lose less total threat by using it early, the dps is also lagging you in threat by much less, and thus needs less total threat to catch up to you that early in the fight. A string of unlucky crits right off of the pull is often enough to do this. Later in the fight, this isn't an issue as long as you can consistently generate threat 20+% more effectively than your DPS can, which most of us agree is possible.

To put it a third way, if a string of melee crits boosts your enhancement shaman's threat by 15k, and he only needed 10k to pull aggro because of an unlucky miss or two, you wipe. If he needed 100k threat to catch up, it's not a problem. How is this first case any worse than a wipe due to a tank dying when a 20% damage reduction would have saved him, assuming the two occur at roughly equivalent probabilities?

AW doesn't change this either, since again we're looking at spikes in a small sample size. It may reduce the probability of it occurring, but it doesn't make the situation any more stable. You'd still probably be better off combining AW and HoSalv as a cooldown on the 2nd or 3rd Plasma Blast than the first one.

Olen wrote:I used it in the first 25 seconds of the Mimiron fight last night. As I've tried to point out, people who haven't used the glyph are scared of it because Salv makes you lose threat.

This isn't the result of being scared of an imaginary bogeyman named "OMG I LOSE THREAT," it's the result of having an elementary understanding of statistics. And your anecdote about using HoSalv on the first 25 seconds of Mimiron doesn't change that - you may have just gotten lucky. One data point doesn't give you any information about the variance.

As an additional anecdote, I tanked Mimiron last night and survived 5 or 6 plasma blasts where I did not receive any external cooldowns. There were also one or two I didn't survive, including one where I did have a GS, because the healer had a "brain fart." I suspect the result is pretty well correlated to whether I announce the incoming Plasma Blast on ventrilo (thus giving my healers time to react and start their big heals).

And to be clear, I'm not "taking a crap" on the glyph, I'll be the first to admit it's a useful cooldown to have in some situations. But the fact that it's more situational than Bubblewall makes it much trickier to use properly. It's certainly not something I would suggest using as an "oh-shit" button, because you may accidentally end up using it in a situation where threat does matter. Late in a single-boss fight with no tricky aggro mechanics, it would be fine. Early in a fight, or shortly after picking up adds, it can be a disaster.

It works best as a calculated cooldown for an incoming damage event that you're anticipating. We already have bubblewall to cover this, but HoSalv can definitely help on fights where we need one more frequently. On the other hand, if you have external cooldowns available that don't have any downside, you're still probably better off using them.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Venoseth » Thu May 07, 2009 3:22 pm

Theck, I usually agree with you, but I think in this case, you're trying to look at the facts, but you're missing how things come together in pratical application.

I got this glyph second week after it came out, and haven't looked back yet (for my MT build, I'm currently using dual specs for 2 tanking talent sets; a heroics/trash build and a MT progression build). As someone who has a lot of experience with the glyph Funtodin has it just about right. Combine this glyph with a /cast > /cancelaura macro and you're golden. For instant spikes and the ensuing regular damage you only need to leave the effect up for 3-4s, which should be no problem in most situations.

The main problem is, as was said before, you can't use it on fights that require taunting from one tank to another as you'd drop more aggro than the new OT just gave you. Other than that, I've yet to run into problems.

Also, on the note of boss-taunting fights you can also use HoS as a way of losing the mob you're on if he becomes taunt immune. ^^
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby theckhd » Thu May 07, 2009 6:12 pm

While that doesn't change the statistics any, I'll concede that an 8-10% threat hit is less dangerous than a 20% one.

But still, perhaps I haven't given this glyph a fair shake. I've been intending to try it out for a while now and haven't gotten around to it. Maybe I'll give it a week and give it a fair trial.
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