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How NOT to pull as a prot pally

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How NOT to pull as a prot pally

Postby Kellel » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:04 am

Okay, so this is 1 part informative post, and 1 part rant .. but useful none the less.

As a long time prot pally that has been forced into both healing and dps'ing roles, I have had some pretty bad experiences with some pally tanks. So bad in fact that it changed my mind that once thought pally tanking was fool proof ;) haha.

I realize there are some excellent posts here that talk about the ideal pull, but I'm assuming that there is an abundance of tanks that haven't found it in that wall of text, so I'm going to give you a couple of what NOT to do's.

When you have a pack of 3+ mobs at 40 yards, do NOT use nothing more than your hand of reckoning and wait for them to run into your consecration. HoReckening is an awesome tool to pull single mobs, or chain pull more mobs every 6 seconds into your inevitable corpse pile ... it is NOT your primary pulling tool. Use your avenger shield please.

do NOT think of your consecrete as instant spikey aoe threat. consecration is NOT shockwave, and it's NOT thunderclap. Consecrete is a DoT and will help you slowly build threat and maintain threat but you need other tools in your tool box to establish threat. Hammer of the Righteous, Avenger shield, Shield of the Righteous and judgments .... Please don't run into a pack of mobs, lay down a consecrete ... wait .. then bitch at your healer for pulling aggro.

DO make sure you have holy shield up before a pull. the reflected holy dmg is also one of your primary threat builders .. but it only works when mobs are hitting you ;) again .. it helps you build and maintain threat .. NOT establish it. The idea is that as soon as a mob does run through your consecration he turns and hits you. The (consecration tick + holy shield dmg) * righteous fury ... now we're getting somewhere. add to that an avenger shield and HoTR and those mob's aren't going anywhere.

Also for now, in Naxx and plenty of heroics ... often you are fighting packs of undead mobs. When 3.0 came out, if you didn't re-hotbar/keybind holy wrath please do so now. I can't understate how much i LOVE this spell. If you are surrounded by undead, or you need to pull an add that's 10 yds away from you back to you and your consecration, avenger shield, exorcism are all on cool down .. holy wrath. It's also awesome if your healer is stunned or sleeping and you see your health dropping like a stone. Unlimited undead targets, 3 second stun ... uhh .. yeah, this will help you establish threat :D. Also with 3.1 Exorcism will now be used on any kind of mob, not limited to Undead .. so I'm sure that will work it's way into my pulling, dmg control utility box.


Here is how I like to pull .. assuming 3 or more mobs.

mark skull, x and any other cc you expect.

target skull

seal of wisdom (seal of vengeance if hard hitting boss or mob)

holy shield

charge pack of mobs

avenger shield

judgement on skull (usually wisdom, but ask your raid leader)

Hammer of the Righteous

Consecration

tab target X

Shield of Righteousness

target back to skull

Holy Shield ......

be ready to hand of reckoning or righteous defense any mobs that might have gotten by you.

now just sit back and enjoy your mega threat using your 9696969 rotation.

if your mana pool is staying healthy via BoSanc and Spiritual Attunement, then feel free to challenge your self to use Seal of Vengeance and try to keep full stacks up on all the mobs.

It also helps if you have a raid frame replacement that allows you to see the targets of your party members. Not only can you correct them after the fight, but you can anticipate which ones they are likely to pull off you.

what the? why is the hunter attacking the unmarked target when skull, x and square are all still alive ... *click target of hunter * click macro that Shield of Righteousness's his target and cusses at him at the same time.

any questions?
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Postby Kellel » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:08 am

oh yeah, one other suggestion. As you get familiar with your abilities, you'll get comfortable with your consecration range ( and hopefully break less cc with it) and you'll also get a feel for how far your shield will jump.

In situations where a pack of mobs is spread out far enough that your shield won't jump ... or is 4 or more mobs ... try to anticipate where they are going to run. Often i'll throw my avenger shield at skull .. and run the other direction towards the mob on the end that won't get hit. I'll slap a Hammer of Justice on him to stun him .. then lay down a consecration and go back to targeting skull.

Anyone else annoyed in H Violet Hold now with that one portal location that has the mobs split up? you know the ones I'm talking about haha .. ;) That right there is a good test of your tank's abilities hehe.
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Re: How NOT to pull as a prot pally

Postby Viycktor » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:18 pm

From a threat perspective, in a 5-man, I'd not recommend sealing wisdom. You give up so much threat, incidental AoE threat at that (from HotR spreading/refreshing Vengeance stacks), that you start to lose the purpose of your original post: to keep threat after the pull occurs.
I understand having mana issues in certain pulls/instances that you overgear (lots of caster or stunning mobs or very fast dps - H VH for example), but SoW is rarely the first solution I'd recommend as a tank.

In 3.1, AS having a silence component will be a much bigger boon to trash tanking for Paladins than the exorcism change: it will allow us to pull casters.


In a charge and go scenario, I change my starting rotation a bit depending on my AS. If AS misses, I may HotR->Cons. If AS hits all the mobs, I judge->ShoR->Cons->HotR to give me more snap threat on the single target -'skull'- mob. If we're going AoE from the get go, leading the HotR is optimal for the most threat on the most targets at the beginning of the fight.

Also, because of pats and certain annoying mobs that like to snare then run, it's often prudent to pull back, rather than charging. In this scenario, we have some interesting choices. AS has the effect of slowing a LOS pull even more than usual. This is good and bad.

-It allows in-combat CC an opportunity to CC their target without worrying about where it will go if it's broken shortly thereafter.

-If there's no CC required, sometimes one or two mobs (often not the skull) will reach your position before the rest (particularly before any casters) and dps will often decide to start on these mobs. Then the casters show up and get hit by dps AoE or get some healing aggro and throw the pull into minor chaos for a few seconds. It's usually nothing a quick taunt/HoJ/ShoR can't take care of, but won't be an issue in 3.1. (also I hear CC will be more important in 3.1... we shall see)
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Postby Ceridwena » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:34 pm

I also question your use of Seal of Wisdom. I admit, for a while there I used BOTH SoW and JoW because I was using Kings instead of Sanct. Honestly, I found if you do things right, in normal 5-mans, you do not need SoW unless you're in some weird situation like the little event in HoS. Since finding this forum I reassessed my use of Seals and Judgements and now have been using SoV and JoL and I get more than enough mana from SA (the Glyph for this is good if you've got a spot open) and Sanct... I pop Divine Plea whenever just 'cos. You gain a lot more threat through SoV. I even completely dropped Sanct for Kings in one Heroic run recently because between my Shammy healer and Ret pally I had more than enough regen.

Just how I roll. No, I've not even stepped into Naxx yet, so its not like I'm super uber or something.

Kellel wrote:Anyone else annoyed in H Violet Hold now with that one portal location that has the mobs split up? you know the ones I'm talking about haha .. ;) That right there is a good test of your tank's abilities hehe.

That one took me a while to get. Now I just pay attention and usually make it up to the portal and slap down a Consecration before they come out. 8)

Was anyone else immediately filled with glee when you read that AS was going to have a silence now instead of daze? That's gonna be really big. For me at least. In some pulls trying to get all the mobs in range was pretty annoying... especially when your dpsers aren't attacking the right target. Wtf, mate. :P

Just my 2cp. =)
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Postby Kellel » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:48 am

yeah I agree with both of you .. seal of Vengeance is usually your seal of choice :D .. i do however completely outgear the 5 man's i'm referring to. I guess i should have specified .. I usually have SoW + JoW up + Bosanc up ... as my threat is not an issue. Usually when pulling a heroic boss, i'll switch to SoV, JoL and kings :D.
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Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:28 am

I usually pull two packs at a time if I'm having mana issues. Except in Old Kingdom. Screw Old Kingdom. I'm a big fan of speed clearing; I'm getting a reputation for farming bronze drakes for people.

My hunter friend always misdirects half of that annoying Violet Hold pull since I mentioned it to him.

It hadn't actually clicked until right now that silence on AS means we can pull casters without using LOS now.

I like being creative with my snap threat moves. Holy Wrath is about my favorite thing ever.
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Postby Mert » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:39 am

When people refer to "that pull" in VH, do you mean the one at the top of the balcony part where the guys go in either direction?

I've only tanked normal VH so far, admittedly (first time was at 72 though, which made me feel like such a pro :P), but I found I can usually get up there in time to lay down a Consecration then wait for the four mobs to spawn. As soon as they become targettable I hit them with as many multi-target things as I can and I can usually hold onto them all where they stand. Basically I aim to tank everything whilst standing right on top of the portal and most times (save for over-eager dps) I grab the aggro the moment they spawn in.

Are you guys referring to something different? Or do you tank every spawn by the door / in the middle of the room or something? I never got given instructions on how to do VH "optimally" so I just run around from portal to portal like it was Black Morass. Not had any problem with mobs splitting off so far by doing it this way.

That said, I have only done it on normal so maybe it's quicker or harder to get between portals in time on heroic?


EDIT: Only just noticed you specifically mentioned that it was Heroic in your post. Ignore me then.
Last edited by Mert on Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Barathorn » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:27 am

Kellel wrote:Anyone else annoyed in H Violet Hold now with that one portal location that has the mobs split up? you know the ones I'm talking about haha .. ;) That right there is a good test of your tank's abilities hehe.


I use AS on 2, rocket gloves on one and stun the Sorceror and mark Skull, leaving both taunts free in case a less than intelligent DPS nukes one of the mobs hit by my shield.

Its a tricky pull and I have seen a lot of tanks struggle with it. Tricky meaning you need half a brain cell to work it out.
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Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:15 am

If you want to be a smartass you can just tank them by the entrance to the instance. I did that once when I was busy typing in chat.
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Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:22 pm

The pull in question is on the upper part of the left-hand side of the instance. When a group spawns from it, they split, with one (or two if it's a 4-group) heading left and the other two heading right.

I put a consecrate at the base of the damaged ramp, and toss my shield at the one that goes left. That's generally a caster, so I will run to it while my consecrate directs the other two to me.

I use a marking add-on (MarkMyTarget), so my DPS can clearly see which one I am going to have threat on. They leave the others alone, so consecrate is all I need to bring them to me.

I am also a SoW/JoW kind of guy. I outgear heroics by a fair bit and am bored with them as well, so running that combo means less effort to put into mana maintenance.

I find SoL a nice tool for situational AoE threat. For example when I was OT for Sarth10 and the tank died, I picked up the boss and used SoL to attract the blazes since I couldn't run around and see to them personally. It worked surprisingly well, and we finished the fight without an OT.
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Postby Zoltar » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:36 pm

"That pull" depends on how good my group is. I think I must run that place at least 4-5 times a week for guildies. If the DPS is strong and portals are being closed quick I have time to run up and drop a consecrate in front of the portal. If not I drop a consecrate on the broken ramp side then run to the steps to hammer the other two, then judge and shield the ones that just ran through my consecrate.

RE Judgements: I stopped using JoL when it was bugged and causing insane amounts of threat as I didn't want to become reliant on a broken mechanic. Just tended to stick with JoW from then on. I find if I am OTing JoL makes it even harder to stay under the MTs threat. I think the only place I would really use JoL is add tanking on Sarth with drakes.
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Postby Koatanga » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:48 am

JoL no longer causes threat, but SoL still does.

It's definitely a situational thing useful only when you want additional AoE threat and have something you can hit a lot. That pretty much leaves out boss fights. Even with Gothik's adds - you just can't hit things often enough to cause any threat with it.

However, it pretty much describes Sartharion OT duties, so it is quite useful there.
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Postby Vioarr » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:38 am

Koatanga wrote:JoL no longer causes threat, but SoL still does.

It's definitely a situational thing useful only when you want additional AoE threat and have something you can hit a lot. That pretty much leaves out boss fights. Even with Gothik's adds - you just can't hit things often enough to cause any threat with it.

However, it pretty much describes Sartharion OT duties, so it is quite useful there.


I would imagine that SoC/SoV would be better as it's a DoT, unlike SoL.
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Re: How NOT to pull as a prot pally

Postby Mozen » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:04 am

Kellel wrote:DO make sure you have holy shield up before a pull.


I almost always have HS after AS. I time my Holy Shield so that as the GCD finishes I'm in range to follow with HotR and have plenty of time to carry on with ShoR, Cons, Holy Wrath, HoJ, etc., before I have to refresh my HS.

This way I maximize my threat for the first few seconds of the fight. I've found this to be necessary with all the trigger-happy DPS. It's a habit I got into when I was first entering heroic, though. Now that I'm fully heroic-geared, sometimes I deliberately skip HS to take a few hits either to maintain mana or to maintain healer focus.

When your priest starts charging into mobs with you and Holy Nova all the way through an instance you know he's bored as hell. This is only for five-mans, though.

What I do pre-cast is Sacred Shield, if I'm not with a paladin healer.
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Postby Lightstrike » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:11 am

I have a couple of discrepancies with this..

I don't want to "sandbag" anyone (family guy reference)
But to me it doesn't look like the OP outgears heroics from what I can see on his/her snapshot thing. I am comfortable using SoW most of the time though in heroics, I'm not sure whether I qualify as overgearing them or not.. I don't struggle with any of them but I could still do with the essence of gossamer for my stam stacking set among a few others. I do however use SoW/SoC for raiding etc.

As for the violet hold pack that we're discussing, I don't have any problems with that one unless the previous portal is the one on the far right (or the DPS are having a retard day and attack the wrong target). You can usually get in place and lay a consecrate down where the portal spawns to help with inital aggro, I then mark the caster and make sure it is hit by avengers shield, then it's just tank and spank.. sometimes I prep SoL in case I'm out of LoS of the healer for a while.

I can sympathise with the OP though to be honest, I posted a few days ago how I failed at healing and how it pissed me off, especially because I was in a "I would've done that differently if I were tanking" situation.
My girlfriend who plays a mage, finds it difficult to DPS when other people are tanking because they really lack the fast AoE threat and she ends up pulling off of them.
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