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PoJ Discussion (Split from the 3.09 Patch Thread)

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Postby Chunes » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:39 pm

are pages 5-9 also filled with this pointless PoJ debate? didnt a mod tell you guys to take it to the spec forum?
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:06 pm

fiorina wrote:I like how it evolved from "a very good talent for just 2 points which are nowhere else to spend anyway" to "essential tanking talent preached by fundamentalists and zealots who can't live without it"


Hehe. :) I just felt like it was a reasonable trade compared to extra seal and judgement threat. Dorvan's right, though -- it is likely not an issue if you have Tuskarr's Vitality. That would save me ~5 or 6 points, which then immediately can go into SotP. {Hmm... i may have to rethink my prior cold-dead-hands stance, hehe.}
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:38 pm

I like how a thread about 3.0.9 patch notes turned into a 10+ page thread about PoJ. I should rename it and just move it to the best forum.

EDIT: I mean, Talent Specs forum. Ya know.
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:39 pm

moduspwnens wrote:I like how a thread about 3.0.9 patch notes turned into a 10+ page thread about PoJ. I should rename it and just move it to the best forum.

EDIT: I mean, Talent Specs forum. Ya know.


It's a good candidate for the split function :P
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Postby Belloc » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:26 am

I don't think the malygos repositioning argument holds any water. First of all, pre-hotfix, Malygos wouldn't even move immediately after a Vortex. He's just stand in place and breathe. By the time he decided to move, you'd have been in position for a second or two anyway.

Now, he doesn't breathe immediately, making that part of the fight even easier. The only real use for PoJ on Malygos is getting into shields faster, and that's a stretch.


I love PoJ, I really do, but I'd never have a problem giving it up. Hell, I first specced into it about 3-4 weeks ago.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:49 am

Belloc wrote:I love PoJ, I really do, but I'd never have a problem giving it up. Hell, I first specced into it about 3-4 weeks ago.


GTFO you dirty SotM respeccer.

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Postby kurros » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:57 am

Belloc wrote:I don't think the malygos repositioning argument holds any water. First of all, pre-hotfix, Malygos wouldn't even move immediately after a Vortex. He's just stand in place and breathe. By the time he decided to move, you'd have been in position for a second or two anyway.

Now, he doesn't breathe immediately, making that part of the fight even easier. The only real use for PoJ on Malygos is getting into shields faster, and that's a stretch.


I love PoJ, I really do, but I'd never have a problem giving it up. Hell, I first specced into it about 3-4 weeks ago.


Positioning faster is simply better, not sure why you think it wouldn't be. Sure, the fight is doable without any speed increase, and it was doable without any speed increase pre-patch too. *Nothing* is necessary, with the right gear and good healers I'm sure a 0/0/0 spec paladin could tank Malygos. If a talent helps more than the alternatives, then I am not going to pass it up just because it might not be 100% "necessary"

I only called it mandatory because I consider it superior to the alternatives. Not that we can't tank without it, but I just couldn't see any logical reason to give it up for, what, 2 points in Seals of the Pure? Points in reckoning? I just don't see any other viable use for those talent points. I suppose mandatory was the wrong word, maybe I should have said optimal or logical.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:15 pm

kurros wrote:I only called it mandatory because I consider it superior to the alternatives. Not that we can't tank without it, but I just couldn't see any logical reason to give it up for, what, 2 points in Seals of the Pure? Points in reckoning? I just don't see any other viable use for those talent points. I suppose mandatory was the wrong word, maybe I should have said optimal or logical.


As I pointed out earlier, for a 25 man build you're giving up 6 points to get it rather than 2. At a minimum, PoJ costs 3 points for a Prot build.
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Postby Panzerdin » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:23 pm

Being dead, on the other hand, costs 70 points.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:29 pm

kurros wrote:Positioning faster is simply better, not sure why you think it wouldn't be.


There's no positioning on Malygos though. Even without PoJ you can always be where you want Malygos to be, before he even starts moving. So while you may get in place faster, Malygos keeps taking his sweet time with the net result being identitical.

Generally speaking, being able to move faster is a bonus, whether or not it's better than the alternatives though is most certainly debatable.
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Postby Panzerdin » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:30 pm

Ultimately, it depends on how well you deal with environmental hazards. It can't really be assessed objectively.
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Postby Conaan! » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:32 pm

Dorvan wrote:
kurros wrote:I only called it mandatory because I consider it superior to the alternatives. Not that we can't tank without it, but I just couldn't see any logical reason to give it up for, what, 2 points in Seals of the Pure? Points in reckoning? I just don't see any other viable use for those talent points. I suppose mandatory was the wrong word, maybe I should have said optimal or logical.


As I pointed out earlier, for a 25 man build you're giving up 6 points to get it rather than 2. At a minimum, PoJ costs 3 points for a Prot build.


it isnt wasted 6 points though, your still getting HotC, and ret pallies arent able to judge it on all targets, for fights like mentioned earlier, and possibly in ulduar, the tiny dps boost will mean higher dps
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Postby kurros » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:43 pm

Dorvan wrote:
As I pointed out earlier, for a 25 man build you're giving up 6 points to get it rather than 2. At a minimum, PoJ costs 3 points for a Prot build.


You mean, in *your* 25 man build you are giving up 6 points. Lets keep things in perspective. Hey, in *my* 25 man build, I like to take crusade, so PoJ effective cost is 0 because I need those points to reach tier 4 ret talents. This line of argument is pointless, the talent costs 2 points so it's 2 talent points in debate. I'm sure someone else will come along and say they don't like to spec deflection and PoJ costs 12 talent points for them.


Fridmarr wrote:
kurros wrote:Positioning faster is simply better, not sure why you think it wouldn't be.


There's no positioning on Malygos though. Even without PoJ you can always be where you want Malygos to be, before he even starts moving.


There is no positioning on Malygos? Are you insane?

Fridmarr wrote:So while you may get in place faster, Malygos keeps taking his sweet time with the net result being identitical.

Generally speaking, being able to move faster is a bonus, whether or not it's better than the alternatives though is most certainly debatable.


So there is positioning, you admit, but you can do the positioning without a speed buff and the net result is the same. I can tank KT as holy spec and the net result is a dead KT, so I guess that means protection spec is pointless.

Don't you see that your line of reasoning is flawed? "You can do it without the talent, so the talent is worthless"- using that logic, EVERY talent is worthless. There are NO mandatory talents currently.

You can tank Sartharion with a Voidwalker, you don't need a paladin, net result is the same. That proves paladins are worthless.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:46 pm

Conaan! wrote:it isnt wasted 6 points though, your still getting HotC, and ret pallies arent able to judge it on all targets, for fights like mentioned earlier, and possibly in ulduar, the tiny dps boost will mean higher dps


If you've got a Ret Pally in raid, HotC will be up on the primary dps target. There are some situations (e.g. adds before Thad) where HotC won't be up on everything, but it's a *very* situational and pretty negligible benefit.

For all intents and purposes PoJ costs 6 points for a 25 man build, 3 points for a 10 man build. Two of those points can come pretty easily from DG, but then you'll have to start pulling from SotP (assuming you've got Kings). I can see the argument for a 10 man build, not so much for a 25 man build...if run speed is an important benefit, it's worth giving to the entire raid as well and therefore having an Unholy DK around.

Oh, and a build which takes Crusade is missing out on some points in deep prot and therefore unacceptable for progression raiding in my view. I stand by my evaluation of the costs of PoJ, whether you think it's worth the cost is, of course, a matter of opinion given that we're comparing apples and oranges.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:54 pm

kurros wrote:There is no positioning on Malygos? Are you insane?

Correct, I do not move Malygos at all, there is no need to do so. No, I am not insane.

kurros wrote:So there is positioning, you admit, but you can do the positioning without a speed buff and the net result is the same. I can tank KT as holy spec and the net result is a dead KT, so I guess that means protection spec is pointless.

I don't admit it. When I land after a vortex I need to move to get in front of him, he however, stays put. When we pull him, I tank him where he lands and am in position before he does.

kurros wrote:Don't you see that your line of reasoning is flawed? "You can do it without the talent, so the talent is worthless"- using that logic, EVERY talent is worthless. There are NO mandatory talents currently.

You can tank Sartharion with a Voidwalker, you don't need a paladin, net result is the same. That proves paladins are worthless.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here that it's not a troll comment. Clearly that is not my logic, you are twisting equality, and you know it. I'll try to rephrase a bit more explicitly. Tanking as holy is not equal to tanking as prot, though you may still win. Positioning Malygos with PoJ and without it, is equal. You will not take extra damage, the DPS won't have to wait. Malygos won't take any longer to be where you want him, there is no discernible difference in any way.

Further, I clearly stated that there is a benefit to PoJ (just not on Malygos), but whether or not that value is worth the points or not is certainly debatable.
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