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PoJ Discussion (Split from the 3.09 Patch Thread)

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Postby Obrimos » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:44 am

Belarkan wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:
Belarkan wrote:Well, Seal of the pure is mitigation talent because it helps you kill your target faster ?


Ah, but not 15% faster, so point-for-point, PoJ obviously wins ...

/silly


Not unless you get 100% of your damages from standing in the fire in which case you're doing something wrong.


Just wait for the bossfight that's all mobility and fire-standing.
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Postby Passionario » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:11 am

Belarkan wrote:Not unless you get 100% of your damages from standing in the fire in which case you're doing something wrong.

Not as wrong as the situation where 100% of all damage dealt to the boss consists of your SoV/JoV.
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Postby Fedaykin98 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:23 am

uke wrote:My main point was that it didn't make sense from a pure min/max perspective.


I think it does make sense from a min/max perspective. Consider:

1) Many tanks like increased speed enough to get a speed/STA boot enchant rather than straight STA (which gives more, obv).

2) Some people (not me, definitely) like reduced disarm enough to cite it as part of the benefit of a weapon chain enchant.

You can get both of those benefits from PoJ, which would allow you to put more STA on your feet and the best enchant on your weapon.

TLDR: I definitely care about run speed enough to enchant for it, but by taking PoJ, I get more STA in the end. And I love STA. :)
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Postby fiorina » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:10 am

+Speed is the best DPS/TPS stat since Molten Core.

In Naxx there is only few fights without required mobility.
Many encounters involve some major running. Being able to do ShotR 2 seconds earlier is much bigger DPS increase than you would normally get for 2 talent points. Same with boss repositioning, initial pulling etc.

Also you can use +22Stamina on boots instead of +speed/sta as other tanks.
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Postby Dantriges » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:34 am

I would miss the speed PoJ provides and 15 % is better than 8% from the enchant.
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:36 am

fiorina wrote:+Speed is the best DPS/TPS stat since Molten Core.

In Naxx there is only few fights without required mobility.
Many encounters involve some major running. Being able to do ShotR 2 seconds earlier is much bigger DPS increase than you would normally get for 2 talent points. Same with boss repositioning, initial pulling etc.

Also you can use +22Stamina on boots instead of +speed/sta as other tanks.


Actually, whether any increase in running speed adds up to a DPS increase depends greatly from fight to fight. As a tank it's very rarely much of an increase at all. Your "2 seconds earlier" would require that it take 28 seconds to run to your target, not something that comes up all that often. At the very least, providing some sort of justification for statements like "it's a bigger DPS increase than you'd normally get for 2 talent points" is in order.

I know there are reasons that people like PoJ and since there's no data I've seen posted for the preference I'm not going to try to talk them out of it, but it's best to know just what you're getting and what you're giving up to take it.

Another thing I have seen pointed out: it's much more reasonable to take it in a 10 man build than a 25 man build, because in a 10 man build you're probably providing HotC as well, whereas in a 25 man build you:

1) probably have a Ret Pally providing HotC
2) May well have an Unholy DK providing the run speed anyway

If you're not using HotC then PoJ is costing you essentially 6 talent points, which is far too expensive for the benefit it provides.
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Postby fiorina » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:17 am

Dorvan wrote:
fiorina wrote:+Speed is the best DPS/TPS stat since Molten Core.

In Naxx there is only few fights without required mobility.
Many encounters involve some major running. Being able to do ShotR 2 seconds earlier is much bigger DPS increase than you would normally get for 2 talent points. Same with boss repositioning, initial pulling etc.

Also you can use +22Stamina on boots instead of +speed/sta as other tanks.


Actually, whether any increase in running speed adds up to a DPS increase depends greatly from fight to fight. As a tank it's very rarely much of an increase at all. Your "2 seconds earlier" would require that it take 28 seconds to run to your target, not something that comes up all that often. At the very least, providing some sort of justification for statements like "it's a bigger DPS increase than you'd normally get for 2 talent points" is in order.

I know there are reasons that people like PoJ and since there's no data I've seen posted for the preference I'm not going to try to talk them out of it, but it's best to know just what you're getting and what you're giving up to take it.

Another thing I have seen pointed out: it's much more reasonable to take it in a 10 man build than a 25 man build, because in a 10 man build you're probably providing HotC as well, whereas in a 25 man build you:

1) probably have a Ret Pally providing HotC
2) May well have an Unholy DK providing the run speed anyway

If you're not using HotC then PoJ is costing you essentially 6 talent points, which is far too expensive for the benefit it provides.


You gain 7 stamina from boots enchant. Ret pala could be placing debuff on other target... Thadius, Sartharion etc.

Let's see just Naxxramas.

Anub'Rekhan - game breaking buff
Noth the Plaguebringer - awesome for picking up the adds, if you solo tank them, you run for solid 10 seconds all the time = 1 extra attack
Heigan the Unclean - easy mode with PoJ, you can position him faster allowing melee DPS avoid parry
Gothik the Harvester - great boost, that 1 extra attack will make a difference
The Four Horsemen - 100+ yards distance which is needed to pass several times, 3% crit on another target
Gluth - great for kiting
Thaddius - 3% crit on aanother add, helps with jump :))
Sapphiron - gives extra attack while running from iceblock located far away. Raid can start DPSing sooner since "cleave country" is there for a shorter period of time.
Picking up Flames on time to avoid enrage - priceless

So... what can I get instead of those 2 points. Better SoR? Few percents to reckoning? Stun resist O_o
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Postby amh » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:24 am

fiorina wrote:Anub'Rekhan - game breaking buff


You actually move on that fight?
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:38 am

To be fair, I think it's three points instead of two, and six if your 3% crit is offered by someone else. Normally you'd just have six, and with full PoJ, you have twelve points in Ret.
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Postby fiorina » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:45 am

moduspwnens wrote:To be fair, I think it's three points instead of two, and six if your 3% crit is offered by someone else. Normally you'd just have six, and with full PoJ, you have twelve points in Ret.


I put 2 points into improved judgements anyway. It's awesome it look nice and dandy while bashing training dummy, but if there are multiple mobs, fast changing situation, I prefer to have shorter judgement CD.

For example, since we lack AoE thunderclap, we can keep debuff on 3 mobs or so, with shorter CD its much easier to to.

Same with Crusader buff. You assume 1 boss and 1 retri pala, but thats not the case in many encounters.


Regarding "Do you move" pro comment. Yes, when there was first raids @Beta with SK/LR/Nihi in Sunwell gear, we moved. Now, not really.
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Postby elfjorc » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:58 am

Even the first raids on Live never had to move.

PoJ is nice, it's never been game breaking. And it's never been a significant DPS increase, it's just nice. It doesn't need more than that.
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Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:43 am

fiorina wrote:Anub'Rekhan - game breaking buff

Hardly. I do this weekly with 8% enchant on boots, and have done it before with no speed enchant. It's not hard. If you're unlucky with your positioning, you might get a stack or two, that's about it.
fiorina wrote:Noth the Plaguebringer - awesome for picking up the adds, if you solo tank them, you run for solid 10 seconds all the time = 1 extra attack

Why would you run for this at all? In 10-man I tank Noth and the adds, in 25- I dps Noth while off-tanking the adds. Stand near Noth and Exorcism+AS+Taunt to pick all three up, they come right to you and once they're in the Consecrate one HotR solidifies aggro. If you're doing this fight properly you don't need to move at all.
fiorina wrote:Heigan the Unclean - easy mode with PoJ, you can position him faster allowing melee DPS avoid parry

You can BACKPEDAL fast enough to put him in position in phase 1, and you're not tanking him in phase 2. None of your melee should be bothering to try and stand behind him anyway. Again, you can easily do this fight with no speed enchant at all, like the rest of our melee dps.
fiorina wrote:Gothik the Harvester - great boost, that 1 extra attack will make a difference

1 extra attack on what? The adds that you can exorcism/AS/taunt/etc? Again, with proper positioning, you don't need to move at all on this fight.
fiorina wrote:The Four Horsemen - 100+ yards distance which is needed to pass several times, 3% crit on another target
Gluth - great for kiting

These two I'll give you, but I've never had too much trouble with 8% (or none) and a frost trap or earthbind totem on Gluth, and if you time it right 4H needs no speed increase. 3% crit is really only relevant to 10-man unless you're starved for ret pallies.
fiorina wrote:Thaddius - 3% crit on aanother add, helps with jump :))

You really, really don't need this for the jump, and the adds are not the DPS check for this fight.
fiorina wrote:Sapphiron - gives extra attack while running from iceblock located far away. Raid can start DPSing sooner since "cleave country" is there for a shorter period of time.

I've never had trouble getting back to sapphiron in time with 8%, even from a really far-out ice block. You could actually avoid that entirely by not having your raid stand by the far wall too, there's plenty of room.
fiorina wrote:Picking up Flames on time to avoid enrage - priceless

In my experience, this is totally unnecessary. You move faster than the blazes do already, and most of the time the enraged ones come from newly spawned ones that have to travel through lava waves to get to you, not from ones you haven't chased down.

So out of all of these bosses, there are two where the extra 7% is marginally helpful, and neither really require it (or at worst, you could get a boot enchant).

I also think you're far overstating this "extra attack speed" bit, as Dorvan said. No fight in the game currently involves running for 30 seconds to get to anything, so you're not really getting an extra attack out of PoJ. Maybe 1/4 of an attack if you're lucky.


I really don't see the point in trying to artificially enhance PoJ's value by making false claims about it. As others have said, PoJ is not game-breaking, it's not a DPS increase, it's not going to make the difference between a wipe and a kill. It's just awfully convenient and nice to have. That should be enough - you don't have to justify to the rest of us why you spent your talent points that way, we're not going to sit here and call you a bad tank or anything. Just be honest with yourself about what the tradeoffs are - PoJ+HotC vs. the extra threat from SotP.

I don't spec PoJ primarily because I have a few pocket ret pallies, so for me the 2 talent points for 7 stamina is a weak trade. Also, I've avoided speccing it for fear that once I have it, I won't be able to give it up :P

However, if the changes to the prot tree make it possible to take SotP and PoJ, or shuffle things around enough that there's a better threat option than SotP, then I may well spec into it.
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Postby Wolvar » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:10 am

POJ is so last month. Tuskarr's is the new POJ.
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Postby Conaan! » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:20 am

theckhd wrote:
I don't spec PoJ primarily because I have a few pocket ret pallies, so for me the 2 talent points for 7 stamina is a weak trade. Also, I've avoided speccing it for fear that once I have it, I won't be able to give it up :P

However, if the changes to the prot tree make it possible to take SotP and PoJ, or shuffle things around enough that there's a better threat option than SotP, then I may well spec into it.


im gonna have to stop you there, 2 talent points for 7 stamina and faster movement, if you follow that logic, 6% spell damage reduction from guarded by the light just isnt worth the talent points, or anything for that matter, its a amount large enough to help

SotP beats conviction only by a small margin, i think something like 5% or so, is that 5% extra really going to help you more than the clutch taunt on the boss you just barely got into range with before it rapes your melee dps?

utility > threat when it comes to talents
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Postby Levantine » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:22 am

To be blunt, it's all flavor past the core build. Do what you want with the points, all the options are correct.

PS dontcha just love not having a cookie cutter build?
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