(0/56/15) Putting out the most DPS as a Tank

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Postby Kierna » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:45 am

I collected some data awhile back where I was unbuffed attacking the test dummy that showed conviction ahead by a slight margin. There were some counter arguments against it (small survey size bs), but the math itself was still solid I believe.

Having said that, at some point I could see SotP outdps'ing a conviction spec once you get your vengeance ticks high enough. At what point that would be, I'm not sure. It would make a lot of sense though that you'd get higher returns from seal of vengeance while fully buffed than unbuffed. If that is the case (which I believe) then there would have to some point where seals of the pure starts doing more damage than a conviction build.

My issue with some of the posts here is that they only look at things from 25 man raid level with certain buffs available. Not everyone will be at that level though and if a different spec would be more optimal at early levels that info should be available too.

I personally like the conviction spec, but as others will/have pointed out, a seals of the pure build will give you more consistant threat over time. I'll also say though that once you get a high enough crit rate through raid buffs, crits stop becoming less random and more consistant. Just not to the degree of SotP.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:23 pm

Math on this has been done...and basically, it shows that SotP is the better THREAT talent at present.

The reason is simple, in that it is increasing holy damage only which has the big multiplier on it.

From a dps perspective, the difference between Conviction & SotP is relatively small and depends on your gear choices.

I looked at some WWS logs from some of my guilds Nax 25 runs.

Generally, regardless of whether I am MT or OT, my top 3 dps sources are melee, HotR and ShoR.

Judgements, Holy Vengeance, Holy Shield and Consecrate are the bulk of the remaining dps sources.

The thing to keep in mind, is that at best, Seals and Judgement are about 25% of my dps without SotP, so the 15% increase from SotP translates to about 3.75% increase in total dps, but because its all magnified by 2.73, it increases total TPS by about 4.1%. (assumes about 20% of dps is coming from melee, will vary with your weapon).

Crit rating favors the talents that account for about 70% or the damage on average. So a 5% increase in crit chance will increase DPS by about 3.5%. Assuming the same amount of dps is coming from melee as above, this means an increase in total threat of ~3.35%.

As you can see, DPS increase is close, but SotP is the clear TPS winner.

However, Seals and Judgements only scale with increases in Str/Sp (sta indirectly). As weapons come out in new content with higher base DPS, and items come out with more Str/BV, I expect that conviction will become more competitive to the point where Conviction will offer more DPS.

Technically, there is a point where Conviction can be better than SotP on a TPS basis as well, but this will depend highly on the stats of new gear we have yet to see.
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Postby Wolvar » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:22 pm

This thread isn't about threat... and my parses consistently show sotp to be consistently under 3% dps increase.

Yours is the first opinion I've seen that put a 5% crit rate under a 4% dps increase.
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Postby majiben » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:35 pm

The numbers you are put out are not fine enough wolvar. Go 1-2 decimal places for a more accurate discussion.
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Postby Wolvar » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:29 pm

Maybe you could join the discussion with your own numbers instead of sitting back and taking jabs. I've already summarized a parse showing sotp at 2.75% dps increase. The conviction increase is much more dependant on your role in a raid, OT's will see more of an increase than MT's.

In MY experience, conviction is better than sotp for dps. It's not likely enough of a difference to matter given the threat gain with sotp but if you are going for max dps, conviction is the way to go.
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Postby Venoseth » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:05 am

Wolvar wrote:In MY experience, conviction is better than sotp for dps. It's not likely enough of a difference to matter given the threat gain with sotp but if you are going for max dps, conviction is the way to go.


Agreed. when I use SoV full-time I get about 16%~ DPS from it/judgement, +15% would be 2.4% increase in damage. The 8% (5% when you have an alternate to HotC) crit to 75% of my damage (SoV+Consecration) from going the Conviction route makes more sense. Especially because there seem to be a lot of situations (even as MT) where I'm using Seal of Wisdom, or at least, the loss of SoV is less detrimental to my DPS than the loss of mana. ^^

In the real world, they're both pretty equal, so do whichever you like. I'd recommend HotC+Conviction to people who do a lot of 5 or 10 mans, where you're more likely to benefit from your choices. ^^
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Postby majiben » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:31 am

I am contributing by calling for more rigorous work. You often have a lot of enthusiasm but lack rigor. Also is there a reason you didn't model it? With dps at least we can fully model every factor with high accuracy. One wws report is enough to raise questions but not to draw conclusions.
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Postby amh » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:23 am

Conviction is a lot more fun than SotP. I can has crit?
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Postby Levantine » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:25 am

amh wrote:Conviction is a lot more fun than SotP.


The real reason Conviction is a viable choice.
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Postby elfjorc » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:36 am

@ the OP : Any particular reason you're trying to do the most DPS and didn't put 20 points in Ret instead of 15?

Maybe you could join the discussion with your own numbers instead of sitting back and taking jabs. I've already summarized a parse showing sotp at 2.75% dps increase. The conviction increase is much more dependant on your role in a raid, OT's will see more of an increase than MT's.


You do realise that Judgments are also affected by Seals of the Pure? Regarding :
Yet the math isn't posted anywhere... even though people have asked for it.

Here's some detail for you:

Heroic Naxx bosses only, WITH SotP:

Seal damage: 1,423,341 (Roughly a 180k increase in damage)

Total damage: 6,560,195

Percentage of DPS increase: ~2.75%


Also if Holy Shield, Consecrate and Holy Vengeance are all adding up to only 20% of your damage, you're probably skipping Consecrates that you shouldn't be. Garath's figure of 30% of damage being unable to crit is around the ballpark things should be at.
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Postby Eaglestrike » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:56 am

I skip consecrate all the time, especially on particular bosses (Loatheb for one, Noth and Heigan for some more) and trash because of mana.

Anyway, I don't agree with all the "numbers have proven" arguing going on but since I have yet to have a 100% fair set of my own numbers to argue with it's meaningless.

So I want to say to the OP, if you want to do the most DPS you'll want to get to Crusade in the ret tree. 3% damage against all targets and 6% increase against a majority of targets.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:17 am

Wolvar wrote:This thread isn't about threat... and my parses consistently show sotp to be consistently under 3% dps increase.

Yours is the first opinion I've seen that put a 5% crit rate under a 4% dps increase.


You are neglecting the fact that some of our DPS does not crit.

Holy Vengeance, Consecration, Holy Shield, Retribution Aura....

In a standard 969 rotation, those make up roughly 30% of your dps. More on a fast hitting mob like patchwerk where HS puts out a surprising number.

5% of 70% is less than 4%..simple enough

For SotP to be less than 3%, you have to be using something other than SoV.

Granted, if your offtanking and need mana/health in some situations I can see using the other seals, but if your strictly sticking with SoV, there is no way that seals and judgements are contributing less than 20% of your damage which would have to be the case to result in a less than 3% dps increase.
Last edited by Garath.Gorefiend on Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wolvar » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:18 am

elfjorc wrote:@ the OP : Any particular reason you're trying to do the most DPS and didn't put 20 points in Ret instead of 15?


I agree. 0/51/20 would be significantly more DPS and still allow you to MT farm content.

elfjorc wrote:You do realise that Judgments are also affected by Seals of the Pure?


Yep, judgements are factored into that number. Sorry that I didn't make that clear.

elfjorc wrote:Also if Holy Shield, Consecrate and Holy Vengeance are all adding up to only 20% of your damage, you're probably skipping Consecrates that you shouldn't be. Garath's figure of 30% of damage being unable to crit is around the ballpark things should be at.


The only reason you'd even consider a build like this is if you are overgearing content and survivability isn't an issue. The absolute first thing you drop from your rotation in this scenario is consecrate.


One thing I'm especially interested in from a DPS perspective on farm content is whether reckoning makes seals of the righteous more attractive than SOV in a Prot/Ret type build.
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Postby elfjorc » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:20 pm

The only reason you'd even consider a build like this is if you are overgearing content and survivability isn't an issue. The absolute first thing you drop from your rotation in this scenario is consecrate.


Ummm no. The only reason you would EVER drop Consecrate is if you're not getting hit hence not getting mana back. Unless you're bringing up 5-man heroic single target bosses that die in 45 seconds.
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Postby Marsalla » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:43 am

About halfway through this thread
http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... c&start=30
Is a parse and some quick math by Knaughty re: SotP v Conviction.

That said, personally I prefer conviction by a fair margin. Prefer. I believe that both SotP and Conviction are very close to each other, and that the difference is largely preference or based on the rest of the raid you normally run with (PoJ v Unholy Aura for instance).

Since we're talking about DPS here, since these two talents are probably very close, it might help to have a better idea of what's being DPSed. If we have a very short single target fight, Conviction would likely win. If we have 3 targets for a minute or so, SotP looks better.

Personally, I prefer Conviction mostly because of PoJ access and to make sure we have a HotCr debuff up. As far as the SotP v Conviction discussion for everything else, I think Conviction is more fun and really the threat/DPS difference is very small. I know some tanks that prefer bigger ticks for long fights, though.

Since the DPS difference really is very small, I think that deciding which talent deals higher DPS will depend on the targets. Take the one you like or the one that leaves you options for other talents you like. Then have fun! Also, if we're talking about "maximum damage as a prot-specced paladin" then we need to setup what defines "prot-specced" so we can go from there.

Maybe something like http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxVA0zxtcIRhoxf0x0f for max DPS with HotR? Anybody have other spec suggestions for the OP?
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