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How to Spec Protection: A Talent Guide (3.0-3.1)

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Postby Quinny » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:53 pm

Awesome post. :D

I like that you list the class talents that are negated by other classes eg BattleShot v Might. Many people miss this when sorting builds within their guild.

My only suggestion is that it might be worth listing something like ....

Standard - take it and dont argue :)
Recommended - good choice for points left
Situational - take only if applies
Not Recommended - Not recommended, seriously

at the start of the talents. Recommended could be taken as being more important than standard on a first read. Or maybe you do mean it that way even :lol:

Again really great post that many should find helpful.
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:55 pm

Worldie wrote:Small error, Divine Guardian absorbs 15 / 30% damage :P


fixed

Majiben wrote:As long as were are on the topic, some of the talents you list as X/2X/3X/.... while others you just leave as X with no explaination. A consistent format always pleases.


fixed

Thornir wrote:You might want to include in the description of Heart of the Crusader that it does not stack with the same buff from other paladins, like PvE rets.


fixed
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Postby moduspwnens » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:14 pm

Quinny wrote:My only suggestion is that it might be worth listing something like ....

Standard - take it and dont argue :)
Recommended - good choice for points left
Situational - take only if applies
Not Recommended - Not recommended, seriously

at the start of the talents. Recommended could be taken as being more important than standard on a first read. Or maybe you do mean it that way even :lol:


Yeah, I was considering that. Just did it. Thanks :)

Panzerdin wrote:I can't help but feel that you're giving Benediction a worse press than it deserves. A few % off all your moves is pretty good, and coupled with the fact that you've got nowhere else to put points (other than imp Judgement) if you want to reach PoJ, it's probably worth having.


Yeah, and I did actually put one point into it in my recommended build. It may be a little harsh, but I do want it to be clear to a new Tankadin that saving mana is not something you should be spending talent points on normally. It isn't, really. It's just better than a single point in improving a blessing you don't use.

moduspwnens wrote:A pretty fail talent. While all of our threat moves are instant, a 10% mana reduction is hardly noticeable, and completely irrelevant on the things that hit hard anyway. While I guess it'd be OK to drop points in here if you have nowhere else to put them, I'd only resort to here if it's the last available place, really.
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Postby Panzerdin » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:14 pm

Fair enough, I just think that it deserves a note as the best filler talent for Ret going (personally, I'd stick 4/5 in it).
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Postby Eaglestrike » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:30 pm

Panzerdin wrote:Fair enough, I just think that it deserves a note as the best filler talent for Ret going (personally, I'd stick 4/5 in it).


Unless you have invincible ret paladins taking heart of the crusader is useful for prot if you're going that far into ret. My last Naxx10 the ret paladin died at 40% on Kel'thuzad, we may not have made the clear if not for my HotC, cause those spiders start hitting very very hard with DPS down, lol.

I'd still like to find the thread about SotP vs Conviction, I haven't been able to find it anywhere, here nor elitistjerks.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:48 pm

Panzerdin wrote:Fair enough, I just think that it (benediction) deserves a note as the best filler talent for Ret going (personally, I'd stick 4/5 in it).


It's fine for ret. My ret build has 5/5 (no PVP talents in my ret build, so I have points to spare). Looks "decent" for Holy - best option for getting deeper in the tree, anyway.

It's craptacular for Prot. Based on personal experience of tanking heroics in almost complete 25-man gear, it is utterly and completely without purpose in a PvE prot build.

So much so that I did a wall of text™® to say so.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:53 pm

Eaglestrike wrote:I'd still like to find the thread about SotP vs Conviction, I haven't been able to find it anywhere, here nor elitistjerks.

It was one post by Psiven, not a thread, and I think it was in my old version of the "Beginner's FAQ".

The original FAQ thread was in the WotLK forum, devolved into off-topic bullshit because the maintainer is a bit of an arsehole, so when I put it in the "Basic Training" forum instead of WotLK, I created a new thread and the old one got unstckied (end eventually deleted, I think).

A few of us, self included, asked Psiven:

YO! Is SotP still more DPS/TPS than Conviction in 3.0.3?

And his response was something like.

Bzzt! Bzzt! Computing... Yes, SotP still more DPS & TPS.

There was no "thread".
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Postby majiben » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:07 am

eaglestrike wrote:Sounds a bit odd to me if the whole forum seems to be "OMG Conviction sucks SotP is SO much better" if that's the basis of it all >.>


The numbers were run. They weren't even close. Simply becaue they are buried doesn't mean that they are inaccurate. If you want to run the numbers yourself it would be welcomed as long you are as transparent with your work as Psiven was.

Or you could read through the 40 page thread for the single post.
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Postby Eaglestrike » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:30 am

I was actually in the process of doing some "rough math" based on my Malygos attempts tonight. 5/5 SotP would have given me 210k extra damage for the raid, where I figured my 3/5 Conviction only gave me 135k of my damage. But if I wanted to keep PoJ I could only afford 3/5 SotP, which would give me 129k damage (and lose the 135k from Conviction) making them roughly even. I'd say overall SotP is better, but it's slight by my poor math. I don't think I'll be changing my spec until I find there's a bigger difference.

I remember reading the original thread in the WotLK forum, but I looked a few times and never could find it again by the time WotLK came out and I wanted to try and maximize myself, lol.

Hopefully next 25-man Patchwerk I can go through and get better numbers for it all to retest myself, since that's probably the most fair fight in terms of being able to use the 96969 rotation most effectively.
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Postby xstrykr » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:32 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Eaglestrike wrote:I'd still like to find the thread about SotP vs Conviction, I haven't been able to find it anywhere, here nor elitistjerks.

It was one post by Psiven, not a thread, and I think it was in my old version of the "Beginner's FAQ".

The original FAQ thread was in the WotLK forum, devolved into off-topic bullshit because the maintainer is a bit of an arsehole, so when I put it in the "Basic Training" forum instead of WotLK, I created a new thread and the old one got unstckied (end eventually deleted, I think).

A few of us, self included, asked Psiven:

YO! Is SotP still more DPS/TPS than Conviction in 3.0.3?

And his response was something like.

Bzzt! Bzzt! Computing... Yes, SotP still more DPS & TPS.

There was no "thread".


Nah, that was in your new FAQ sticky, Knaughty...

But yeah, Conviction is pretty much blah, and Benediction is pretty much useless... so much so that once I start doing Naxx-25 with regularity, I'm gonna drop PoJ for SotP (and cry a little on the inside because of the loss of speed).
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:35 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Eaglestrike wrote:I'd still like to find the thread about SotP vs Conviction, I haven't been able to find it anywhere, here nor elitistjerks.

It was one post by Psiven, not a thread, and I think it was in my old version of the "Beginner's FAQ".

The original FAQ thread was in the WotLK forum, devolved into off-topic bullshit because the maintainer is a bit of an arsehole, so when I put it in the "Basic Training" forum instead of WotLK, I created a new thread and the old one got unstckied (end eventually deleted, I think).

A few of us, self included, asked Psiven:

YO! Is SotP still more DPS/TPS than Conviction in 3.0.3?

And his response was something like.

Bzzt! Bzzt! Computing... Yes, SotP still more DPS & TPS.

There was no "thread".


I did some preliminary numbers a long time ago in Beta (you can poke around in the WotLK archive forum to find them)....SotP was quite a ways ahead of Conviction though, so I don't think any changes that have occured will have changed that.

edit -- here it is: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... highlight=

At the time, number showed SotP as 20% more effective per talent point than Conviction. Take those exact numbers with a large grain of salt though, I'd trust something more recent like Eagle's.
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Postby Panzerdin » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:14 pm

I would like to withdraw my previous comment about Benediction. Knaughty has convinced me.
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Postby knaughty » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:59 pm

Panzerdin wrote:I would like to withdraw my previous comment about Benediction. Knaughty has convinced me.


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Postby Grindhouse » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:36 pm

Awesome post. definitely using this as a reference.

Also, you doubled up on Tier 9. I was reference what you had and looking at my current spec and I couldn't figure out what I missing. Drove me nuts.

Thanks again.
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Postby Arizara » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:52 pm

Imp HoJ is also handy on malygos where you can have a similar cooldown to deathgrip for stunning sparks. there are a lot of fights where HoJ is useful if you get used to using it where possible, but on KT, i still enjoy my glyph of exorcism (also handy against demo locks in arena) which is a 15 second interupt (though also tied to gcd).

i think people take their talent decisions to personally. i spec the way i do cause it fits the way i play. and i adjust it based on content. if 2 points here vs 2 points there breaks you, then something else probably went wrong too. HoJ is also a cheap alternative to consecration to grab that extra mob. its pve uses are often underrated because its so situational, but having the 'perfect spec' is something you may have to worry more about in t8...
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