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3.0 Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin basics.

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Re: Frequently *Answered* Questions - Tankadin quickie basic

Postby knaughty » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:27 pm

Ryhas wrote:One question though, I'm a little confused about the terminology used here. Why is having 102.4% combined avoidance (previously known as uncrushable) now referred to as "block capped". To me that would imply that there is maximum block rating you can achieve like being "hit rating capped" for example.

Then again i could have missed something and there is an actual Block rating cap :wink:

Because once you're at 102.4% any extra block rating is pushed off the the combat table and "wasted".

So you're using up itemisation budget on stuff that isn't helping you tank.
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Postby Thels » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:04 am

So yes, as you say, once Block Capped is reached, any additional block rating is wasted.

Note that we can only reack Block Capped while HS/Redoubt is up, so when both are down, your extra block rating of course has value.

It's now called Block Capped instead of Uncrushable, since the Crush meganism is changed. Just get to level 80 and get your base defense up to 400, and uncrushable you are. :)
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Postby Nehor » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:39 am

But even with being block capped one would still not want to turn down str. to increase the amount blocked or are we mainly talking about block stats like value and rating?
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Postby knaughty » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:35 pm

Nehor wrote:But even with being block capped one would still not want to turn down str. to increase the amount blocked or are we mainly talking about block stats like value and rating?

Strength and Block Value rock.

Block rating past the "block cap" is poor for boss tanking and great for AE tanking.
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Postby Nehor » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:47 pm

So it is like defence... you can go beyond the "cap" for the benifit it brings to other defensive stats?
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Postby knaughty » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:02 pm

Nehor wrote:So it is like defence... you can go beyond the "cap" for the benifit it brings to other defensive stats?


No.

Defence rating is always good.

Fo single tanking you won't run out of Holy shield charges, so block rating past the block cap is (close to) useless.

When you're AE tanking, the mobs will chew through your HS charges, so BR is decent. But with redoubt as well, not very decent.

Block value is awesome, and ZOMGAMAZING for AE tanking.
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Postby Zironic » Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:54 pm

Q: What weapon enchant?
A: At 70: Potency (20 strength) for threat and EH via a little BV. Agility for 0.8% Dodge.
A: At 80: Still Potency. Superior Potency is less threat & no BV. Accuracy gives 0.76% +hit which is very useful, and some crit, which isn't.


I was thinking a bit about this, how much better is potency exactly then spellpower?

If I can remember correctly spellpower weapons and melee weapons are roughly equal (unless this has changed because of the ret nerfs) so I'd argue you should pot Potency on the melee weapon and spellpower on the spellpower one.

Why? Well, odds are you'll want to use the spellpower weapon as your healing weapon aswell, esp if you're prot/holy dual specced. Ofcourse if you're 100% maintanking potency is probably the best but a paladin is really a hybrid and I think that should be considered when picking enchants in general cases.
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Postby xstrykr » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:52 pm

Zironic wrote:
Q: What weapon enchant?
A: At 70: Potency (20 strength) for threat and EH via a little BV. Agility for 0.8% Dodge.
A: At 80: Still Potency. Superior Potency is less threat & no BV. Accuracy gives 0.76% +hit which is very useful, and some crit, which isn't.


I was thinking a bit about this, how much better is potency exactly then spellpower?

If I can remember correctly spellpower weapons and melee weapons are roughly equal (unless this has changed because of the ret nerfs) so I'd argue you should pot Potency on the melee weapon and spellpower on the spellpower one.

Why? Well, odds are you'll want to use the spellpower weapon as your healing weapon aswell, esp if you're prot/holy dual specced. Ofcourse if you're 100% maintanking potency is probably the best but a paladin is really a hybrid and I think that should be considered when picking enchants in general cases.


Spellpower and Attack power have NEVER been equal. It takes a lot more SP to equal 1 AP now. This is why you see 200+ spellpower on a weapon, but only ~50 or so (give or take) on a weapon of equal ilvl.

Yes, you should always put a spellpower enchant on a spellpower weapon and Potency on the melee weapon. But with the changes to paladin tanking, spellpower anywhere other than on a weapon is useless, and a spellpower weapon is really only marginally useful (and debateble, at that) when in a heavy AoE tanking situation, where consecrate spams are win. Therefore Potency wins over Spellpower, as with 40+ AP and 12+ BV, it clearly outweighs the added threat from 40 SP, which is really all it's good for now. Besides, because of that change, we should be using melee-oriented DPS weapons. And the implication behind that is that you are using the correct weapon.

If you're gonna heal, you'll probably be specced Holy. I don't see too many Holy/Prot specs unless you're PvPing as Prot, which is pretty unliekly as it is. Besides, if you are healing, you ought to be wearing a full spellpower set anyway, and if you're wearing a dps weapon w/ 40 SP on it in your healing gear... well... I won't go there.
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Postby majiben » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:54 am

Buffed with kings and talents potency is worth 50 AP and 15 BV. It is the cear winner of even the northrend enchants.
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Postby Zironic » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:08 am

Spellpower and Attack power have NEVER been equal. It takes a lot more SP to equal 1 AP now. This is why you see 200+ spellpower on a weapon, but only ~50 or so (give or take) on a weapon of equal ilvl.


You're confused.

They're roughly equal because our spells scale similarly from both AP and Spellpower.

For example consecration:
Consecrates the land beneath the Paladin, doing [8 * (113 + 0.04 * SPH + 0.04 * AP)] Holy damage over 8 sec to enemies who enter the area.


The reason Spell weapons have alot more spellpower then melee weapons have AP is because the melee weapons spend that part of the itembudget on DPS.

Yes, you should always put a spellpower enchant on a spellpower weapon and Potency on the melee weapon.

This was the only thing my post was actually about.

But with the changes to paladin tanking, spellpower anywhere other than on a weapon is useless,


This was afaik true even before the changes, it just went from bad to pathetic.
Therefore Potency wins over Spellpower, as with 40+ AP and 12+ BV, it clearly outweighs the added threat from 40 SP, which is really all it's good for now. Besides, because of that change, we should be using melee-oriented DPS weapons. And the implication behind that is that you are using the correct weapon.


Since this is a WotlK FAQ the relevant enchants to compare 20 STR with is 63 spellpower or 60 attack power.

If you're gonna heal, you'll probably be specced Holy. I don't see too many Holy/Prot specs unless you're PvPing as Prot, which is pretty unliekly as it is. Besides, if you are healing, you ought to be wearing a full spellpower set anyway, and if you're wearing a dps weapon w/ 40 SP on it in your healing gear... well... I won't go there.


I'm just arguing that the FAQ could use a note that says if you're using a spellpower weapon for tanking it might be better to enchant it with more spellpower.
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Postby majiben » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:36 pm

Zironic wrote:
If you're gonna heal, you'll probably be specced Holy. I don't see too many Holy/Prot specs unless you're PvPing as Prot, which is pretty unliekly as it is. Besides, if you are healing, you ought to be wearing a full spellpower set anyway, and if you're wearing a dps weapon w/ 40 SP on it in your healing gear... well... I won't go there.


I'm just arguing that the FAQ could use a note that says if you're using a spellpower weapon for tanking it might be better to enchant it with more spellpower.
But if you're only using it for tanking you are better off with a STR/AP enchant (more threat and possibly mitigation).

If you use it for healing then that's a different matter.
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Postby majiben » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:36 pm

Zironic wrote:
If you're gonna heal, you'll probably be specced Holy. I don't see too many Holy/Prot specs unless you're PvPing as Prot, which is pretty unliekly as it is. Besides, if you are healing, you ought to be wearing a full spellpower set anyway, and if you're wearing a dps weapon w/ 40 SP on it in your healing gear... well... I won't go there.


I'm just arguing that the FAQ could use a note that says if you're using a spellpower weapon for tanking it might be better to enchant it with more spellpower.
But if you're only using it for tanking you are better off with a STR/AP enchant (more threat and possibly mitigation).

If you use it for healing then that's a different matter.
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Postby xstrykr » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:58 pm

Zironic wrote:
Spellpower and Attack power have NEVER been equal. It takes a lot more SP to equal 1 AP now. This is why you see 200+ spellpower on a weapon, but only ~50 or so (give or take) on a weapon of equal ilvl.


You're confused.

They're roughly equal because our spells scale similarly from both AP and Spellpower.

For example consecration:
Consecrates the land beneath the Paladin, doing [8 * (113 + 0.04 * SPH + 0.04 * AP)] Holy damage over 8 sec to enemies who enter the area.


Hm, I guess I was wrong. In beta and in some early builds of LK, a lot of paladin spells actually scaled slightly better with AP, which is why I always considered SP and AP not equal. My mistake - after looking over the spell list on WoWhead I see that almost all of them now scale pretty much equally, and a rare few that do favor one over the other, but even on those, the scaling difference is less than 10%.

I'm just arguing that the FAQ could use a note that says if you're using a spellpower weapon for tanking it might be better to enchant it with more spellpower.


I always thought that that was implied because you should enchant to the strength of the gear.
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Postby Zironic » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:07 pm

Majiben wrote:But if you're only using it for tanking you are better off with a STR/AP enchant (more threat and possibly mitigation).

If you use it for healing then that's a different matter.


Sometimes you might want to use the same weapon for both specs ;)

It's not like high end spellpower weapons grow on trees.
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Postby econ21 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:43 pm

Zironic wrote:
Spellpower and Attack power have NEVER been equal. It takes a lot more SP to equal 1 AP now. This is why you see 200+ spellpower on a weapon, but only ~50 or so (give or take) on a weapon of equal ilvl.


You're confused.

They're roughly equal because our spells scale similarly from both AP and Spellpower.


From some recent posts (look around pages 35-36) by PsiVen and Cordelia in the Wotlk weapons sticky, it appears that AP is about 50-100% better than SP for us now. PsiVen comments about the nerfs to scaling adversely affecting SP in particular.
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