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Need Advice on Tanking - Couple of Questions

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Need Advice on Tanking - Couple of Questions

Postby neokai » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:09 am

Long post, pls bear with me....

I'm a holy-turned-prot pally that is kinda clueless on the mechanics of tanking. I've been prot for about 2 weeks, learning "on the job" as i get thrown into Kara just after respeccing, then moving on to SSC and TK. Been reading as much from the Wow class forums and from here; Very nice reads btw, lots of quality gems without having to sift through the crap of WoW trolls. Gear profile is listed in sig, if it shows 2 piece righteous that's my farming gear. Summary of stats with no modification from any aura or buff:

HP: 12017 (mp: 4878)
Armor: 14941
Defence: 509
Dodge: 18.35%
Parry: 17.59%
Block: 20.11%
Spell damage: 333

My aggro is at about 600-700tps on average for single target while MT. For OT, i do about 400 tps, although it can drop to as low as 240tps, especially when offtanking. My method is to pull with avenger's shield, then max rank consecrate while judging JoW or JoC, then chain casting JoR with rank 2 consecrate. For offtanking i judge JoC, then rank 2 consecrate and avenger's shield whenever it is up.

Question 1: Is SoV a better choice than SoR threat wise, especially when offtanking? I tried out both ways, but did not see any appreciable difference in threat generated and find that the vengeance seals tend to disappear without being refreshed and i have to start afresh quite often.

Question 2: Any tips for gear changes? I'm gunning for either T4 chest/shoulder for 2 piece bonus, and maybe T5 shoulders or pants, even if it pains me to part with my wyrnn leggings. I'm also having a guildy help me build Belt of the Guardian. Weapon-wise, i am wavering between Blade of the Archmage(Present weapon) and Greatsword of Horrid Dreams for its spell hit and slightly more stam.
Last edited by neokai on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby neokai » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:28 am

As a tank i was tasked with tanking leotheras, reaggroing him after every ww by using avenger's shield. I've searched online but could find no conclusive discussion/guide/theorycraft about the mechanics for avenger's shield. It's important that i do not miss the shield throw becoz the boss can go out of range for my judgements at times.

Question 3: Is avenger's shield based on melee hit or spell hit? What are the mechanics for avenger's shield? Its spell coefficient?

For VR, i'm 1 of 3-4 tanks building aggro on him and I find that when the boss aggros on me I get 3-4 shotted by a string of hits before the healers can react.

Question 4: Any tips for surviving the aggro? I can survive the initial pull and subsequent aggro but sometimes i die so fast it's impossible for healers to react.
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Postby Jaydin » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:17 pm

question one - hard to say for me since im a be, but i was under the impression that its mostly a matter of preference, and SoV's dot is nice on mobs that fear, stun, etc so you have damage ticking away at them

question 2 - not sure what your miss chance is but your uncrushability is borderline - do you have the libram of repentence or whatever yet? have you checked to see if you're uncrushable?

question 3 i believe we're pretty sure its melee hit, as it cannot be resisted (as a spell would be) but it can miss (which a spell cannot do). mechanics? it tries to hop from one target to the next, usually critting whatever critter it possibly could reach if at all possible ^_^ spell coefficient iirc is 100%

question 4 - i dont have that much experience in the matter, but i'd recommend keeping holy shield at the ready and be prepared with perhaps a pot or healthstone if you see yourself dropping too quickly

hope that helps some and tides you over til someone of greater knowledge and wisdom replies ^_^
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Postby neokai » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:40 pm

Question 2: If you mean the libram that adds 2.*% to block rating with holy shield up, yes. Using the Tankpoints mod i am borderline uncrushable (103.1% if i'm not wrong) to figure in more spell damage gear, e.g. neck, ring.

Question 3: So Avenger's shield is based on melee hit? That would suck, since other than 3% from Precision talents I dun have any other +hit gear. Prob have to gun for the aldori shield from gruul i guess.....

Question 4: I find that, especially when offtanking and fighting for aggro (e.g. VR), putting up holy shield at all times is extremely mana intensive at a time when I am already not regenerating enough mana to maintain my aggro generation even with pots usage....
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Re: Need Advice on Tanking - Couple of Questions

Postby Alixander » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:49 pm

neokai wrote:Question 1: Is SoV a better choice than SoR threat wise, especially when offtanking? I tried out both ways, but did not see any appreciable difference in threat generated and find that the vengeance seals tend to disappear without being refreshed and i have to start afresh quite often.
In general, most alliance paladins recommend SoR for a more predictable method of threat generation. SoV is based on a 20 Procs per minute system. This means that with any weapon faster than a 3.0 attack speed weapon will find themselves with a less than 100% chance to proc per swing. Most good caster swords are in the 1.6-1.8 attack speed range which puts the chance to proc for SoV at 53 to 60%. As you've noticed, despite being an above average chance to proc, the SoV DoT still has a tendency to fall off. This means loss of threat generated by both the DoT and the Judgement. SoR always does holy damage with each hit, which means you are alway generating threat.

neokai wrote:Question 2: Any tips for gear changes? I'm gunning for either T4 chest/shoulder for 2 piece bonus, and maybe T5 shoulders or pants, even if it pains me to part with my wyrnn leggings. I'm also having a guildy help me build Belt of the Guardian. Weapon-wise, i am wavering between Blade of the Archmage(Present weapon) and Greatsword of Horrid Dreams for its spell hit and slightly more stam.
For the weapon, the usual advice is to rep up with KoT and get the Continuum Blade. It's a very good mix of spell damage and stamina (around 150 more health than the GoHD which has approximately equal spell damage). But, seeing as you say later you're currently at Leotheras see if you can get the caster sword he drops. It has high Stamina and good amount of spell damage. It's really is one of the most ideal Tankadin weapons out there. You will probably have some to a lot of resistance on getting it from the casters currently in your guild, but if you're being brought in as one of the primary tanks of the guild (which is what it seems considering that you're being tagged to tank Leotheras) remind them all that the amount of damage they can do is specifically limited to how much threat you can generate. More spell damage for you = more threat generated which = more damage they can do. ;)

Jaydin touched on my reply for question three, and I'm pretty much not in the know on Void Reaver.
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Postby Buttertoast » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:16 pm

3. AS is melee hit. you cap your hitrate at 100% by stacking 89 hit rating on top of precision (not going to comment on the viability of this). 9.52% coefficient per jump seems to emphasize that it is NOT used for damage.

4. this has to be healer error. loot reaver hits like an absolute pansy. is there somebody standing ~20yd behind you when you have aggro? ranged dps/healer at short range, like sp, can cause melee to be hit by orbs if they're too close. aside from that, even pounding + melee dps will take at least 10-ish second to kill you.
so, that begs the question, what are the healers doing? :P
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Postby neokai » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:23 pm

Buttertoast wrote:3. AS is melee hit. you cap your hitrate at 100% by stacking 89 hit rating on top of precision (not going to comment on the viability of this). 9.52% coefficient per jump seems to emphasize that it is NOT used for damage.

4. this has to be healer error. loot reaver hits like an absolute pansy. is there somebody standing ~20yd behind you when you have aggro? ranged dps/healer at short range, like sp, can cause melee to be hit by orbs if they're too close. aside from that, even pounding + melee dps will take at least 10-ish second to kill you.
so, that begs the question, what are the healers doing? :P


Question 3. Guildy of mine asked on the DnT forums and it drew varied responses.... here's the link to the discussion DnT Forum. Their conclusion? It uses spell hit. The mystery deepens......

Question 4. I believe i was hit for 4k, 4k, 6k within the span of 5 sec. It could be healer error, but i also have to bear in mind that i have at least 4k less hp than the other tanks and becoz i never put up holy shield, i have that 15% chance to be crushed..... so at least part of the blame lies on me for not maintaining uncrushability... :cry: Gonna try keeping lvl 1 shield up at all times now.
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Postby Nich » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:17 am

When I'm an OT, I like SoV for sustained fights.

Off the top of my head, each tick of a full stack should be about the same damage as a single SoR proc.

So you'll have less initial aggro at the start, while you're building the stack.

But JoV will generally land for more than JoR.


It's mostly personal preference, tho'.
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Postby jere » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:40 am

neokai wrote:
Question 3. Guildy of mine asked on the DnT forums and it drew varied responses.... here's the link to the discussion DnT Forum. Their conclusion? It uses spell hit. The mystery deepens......



Honestly, that doesn't solve the mystery in my book. I have had a GM tell me pallies aren't as good tanks as warriors because they don't have a taunt...and that is since the BC has been out. I know the spell crits as a melee attack (double damage), so that is what makes me lean towards melee hit/crit rates. I don't know that for certain mind you, but it makes the most sense to me. I have learned not to trust GM's as they typically are "trained" and don't really know much about the game on their own.
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Postby Igrado » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:16 am

edit: post "deleted" as I never should have posted it in the first place.
Last edited by Igrado on Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Nich » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:23 am

Igrado wrote:use rank 1 if you absolutely must... I guess I don't know the fight but how the hell can you go OOM in a raid? I'd recommend downranking conc or AS before HS though... I use 1 for 5s and soloing but 4 for bosses and raids (granted only touched Kara)

It's an all out threat race. You're burning max rank judgements and consecrations and shield tosses and everything.

The only thing you'd downrank is holy shield, and even then you're going to be relying on pots if you're like most people.

No offense, but 'being dumb' is not understanding an encounter and then having a go at people :)
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Postby Buttertoast » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:25 pm

neokai wrote:Question 4. I believe i was hit for 4k, 4k, 6k within the span of 5 sec. It could be healer error, but i also have to bear in mind that i have at least 4k less hp than the other tanks and becoz i never put up holy shield, i have that 15% chance to be crushed..... so at least part of the blame lies on me for not maintaining uncrushability... :cry: Gonna try keeping lvl 1 shield up at all times now.
This is a big problem. There's no reason to not keep hs active if you're primary target at the time.

But it begs the question, why rank 1? You know...you're tanking, right? You don't have to maintain the "naked OT" threat rotation if you're actually tanking. I'm just not really sure I see your logic in jumping from "no holy shield" to "rank 1 holy shield".

I guess it would be the same reaction that i would have to a warrior who didn't use shield block when reaver was on him, even though it opened up revenge opportunity (like hs aggro, only available while you're primary target). or, after consultation, decided to use rank 1 revenge for some mind boggling reason.

um, you're being dumb (see bold). Being crushable in a raid makes us a BAD tank (by player, not gear or spec) in any situation where your mana is above 10%, and bad for most situations below that point...

use rank 1 if you absolutely must... I guess I don't know the fight but how the hell can you go OOM in a raid? I'd recommend downranking conc or AS before HS though... I use 1 for 5s and soloing but 4 for bosses and raids (granted only touched Kara)

(edit: cuz this isn't WoW's forums)
i have to agree with Nich on this one. please don't go spewing generalities if you don't at least have an understanding of the situation at hand.
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Postby pyrotechniq » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:40 am

Igrado wrote:
um, you're being dumb (see bold). Being crushable in a raid makes us a BAD tank (by player, not gear or spec) in any situation where your mana is above 10%, and bad for most situations below that point...

use rank 1 if you absolutely must... I guess I don't know the fight but how the hell can you go OOM in a raid? I'd recommend downranking conc or AS before HS though... I use 1 for 5s and soloing but 4 for bosses and raids (granted only touched Kara)

(edit: cuz this isn't WoW's forums)



Obviously agro switched from one of the tanks to him and he didn't have HS up yet.(at least that the only reason i can see for it) You nvr know when one of the other tanks is going to get knocked back and I don't think id be able to keep my mana up if i was spamming HS during the off tank portions of the fight. Still if you didn't get you shield up after 3 hits somethings wrong.

Agro dumps combined with enrage timer and the fact that you are not being hit all the time make mana an important thing to watch for this fight. Potting preemptively etc. I have run out of mana on this fight and ate a crushing or to just cuz i didn't have the mana to put my shield up. Ironically since i didn't die those crushes helped me get a lot of my mana back.=p
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Postby Igrado » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:23 am

Igrado wrote:um, you're being dumb (see bold). Being crushable in a raid makes us a BAD tank (by player, not gear or spec) in any situation where your mana is above 10%, and bad for most situations below that point...

use rank 1 if you absolutely must... I guess I don't know the fight but how the hell can you go OOM in a raid? I'd recommend downranking conc or AS before HS though... I use 1 for 5s and soloing but 4 for bosses and raids (granted only touched Kara)

(edit: cuz this isn't WoW's forums)


I would like to retract my previous post. I apologize for speaking so, er, strongly, from such brazen ignorance. There's no place for that kind of thing on these boards, and apologize. Thank you for kindly putting me in my place.
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Postby Igrado » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:36 am

now, having that aside, and realizing I've obviously not done this fight, I'd just look at it more basically. HS gives
)1( Block % (uncrushable)
)2( Threat on block

So it obviously doesn't make any sense to waste mana on it if you're not getting smacked. You put it up for one or both of the above reasons. I think if you're dieing and it's not up that that's just not smart. Once you see he's targeted you it should go up, IMO before anything else. What rank you choose to use is up to you and how you expect the fight/mana issue to go, that's not a question that I know enough to answer.

It just doesn't make sense to die b/c HS was not up unless you were OOM. I understand now that this fight is very tricky on the mana, but dieing isn't really a good result either :P
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